Tuesday, November 17, 2009

The Queen a Parasite? No, a penny pinching paragon.

This morning, we will see the great, unwritten British constitution on display in all its glory — the Sovereign in her Crown and on her Throne, opening her democratically -elected Parliament.

At the same time, a promising political career lies in ruins for mocking it.

Until yesterday, Peter White was a young Labour activist seeking the first rung on the political ladder.

A former chairman of London Young Labour and former aide to a Labour Minister, he is a prospective candidate for Havering Council in East London.
Today, though, at 26, he finds himself sitting somewhere between Sir Fred Goodwin and swine flu in the court of public opinion.

Over the weekend, Mr White launched a vituperative personal broadside at the most popular and respected figure in British public life.
The cause of Mr White’s foam-flecked fury was a suggestion that there should be a public holiday for the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee in 2012.

Read more...

Bishop of Blackburn says he will not convert to Rome

Religious Intelligence

Tuesday, 17th November 2009. 12:51pm

By: George Conger.

The Bishop of Blackburn will not be taking the Pope up on his offer of a home for disaffected Anglicans in the Roman Catholic Church.

In an interview given to the Lancashire Telegraph, the Rt Rev Nicholas Reade said “I am Bishop of Blackburn, and I will continue to be until the good Lord releases me from it.”

At a joint press conference in London held by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of Westminster plans for a “personal ordinariate” for Anglicans who sought to enter into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, while maintaining some aspects of their Anglican identity were announced.

Bishop Reade said the Pope’s offer was “very generous” but “I would have to say I don’t expect many to go” over to Rome.

“The Church of England is a big tent and while there are boundaries to what Anglicans believe, we are a Church that makes room for everyone,” he said. The point of friction in the Church of England for Anglo-Catholics today was the issue of “whether we have women bishops. It’s not quite as simple as saying ‘we have women judges and a woman Prime Minister’. I would hope we could come up with a stance that’s able to appeal to both sides.”

Bishop Reade said he would not be going over to Rome. “I would want to see my time out as Bishop of Blackburn. In other words, I could only cease to be Bishop of Blackburn if ill health, death or retirement intervened.”

Link to original...

Lottery System to choose next Serbian Patriarch

Faith World

If U.S. voters elected their president in the same way the Serbian Orthodox Church chooses it patriarch, they could have seen Ralph Nader, Ross Perot or other third place finishers taking up residence in the White House. That’s because the Church, in a move originally aimed at thwarting Communist authorities, uses a system that incorporates a lottery within the election by church elders to choose a leader.

The Holy Synod of Bishops, the Church’s top executive body, will use that system within the next three months to elect a successor to Patriarch Pavle, who died on Sunday. Pavle headed the Serbian Orthodox Church during the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s as Serbs warred with neighbours of other faiths.

Pavle, 95, died at Belgrade’s Military Hospital where he had been treated since 2007 for various ailments. As his health deteriorated, although nominally still head of the church until death, Pavle had given up its day-to-day running in 2008 to Bishop Amfilohije, who is seen as a Serb nationalist on issues such as Kosovo.

Read further...

Iraqi Bishop Holds Catholic Mass at COB Adder

By: Sgt. Matthew E. Jones on: Sun Nov. 15, 2009
@WDTPRS

CONTINGENCY OPERATING BASE ADDER, Iraq – The acting bishop of Basra held Catholic Mass here Nov. 7 in honor of the service members and civilians working toward a safer, more secure Iraq.

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Christmas could be killed off by Harman's Equality Bill, bishops warn

Mail Online
By Kirsty Walker

Harriet Harman's Equality Bill strengthens protection for minority groups by placing new equality duty on public bodies

Christmas celebrations could be banned under Harriet Harman's controversial Equality Bill, Catholic bishops warned yesterday.

The bishops said they feared that the complex legislation could have the 'chilling effect' of town halls and other organisations clamping down on Christian festivities.

Monsignor Andrew Summersgill, the general secretary of the Catholic Bishops' Conference, has written to MPs expressing his concerns about the new legislation.

His submission warns that the Equality Bill will fuel Britain's 'risk averse' culture.

The bishops pointed to bizarre decisions made in recent years to ban Christmas decorations for fear of offending other cultures.

Oxford city council last year provoked outrage by renaming the city's Christmas festival as the 'Winter Light Festival' to make it more inclusive.

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Cardinal George advocates strong Leadership

"Your submission to your bishop, who is in the place of Jesus Christ, shows me that you are not living as men usually do but in the manner of Jesus himself," Antioch wrote in a citation noted by Cardinal George.

That elevated view of the bishop's authority guided George's remarks. For example, he made it clear that even the recent years of crisis would not cow the bishops in their effort to reassert their authority and relevance.


This is good news that he wishes to affirm the role of Bishop quoting St. Ignatius of Antioch, but what does it mean? He makes it clear that he will not only attempt to quell the progressive voices, but also those that are more Ultramontane and Traditionalist. How often has anyone heard the familiar cliche about turning back the clock?

"There are some who would like to trap the church in historical events of ages long past, and there are others who would keep the bishops permanently imprisoned in the clerical sexual abuse scandal of recent years," George said. "The proper response to a crisis of governance, however, is not no governance but effective governance."

If Bishops were more about teaching the Catholic Faith rather than engaging in Inter-faith and social justice, they would have an easier time asserting their authority when it comes to those dissident liberal groups who undermine the Bishop's authority not infrequently and seem to feed at the trough of social justice and religious indifferentism. If Catholics are ignorant of their Faith, they are so because American Bishops have worked so hard in the past to minimize those things, like the authority of Bishops, in favor of liberal ideas like false ecumenism, religious liberty and indifferentism.

As it is, they are "prisoners of the sexual abuse scandal" because they recruited wicked men and women to run their schools, parishes and poor relief programs. Cardinal George still seems to have a problem with this himself. Despite talking tough about dealing with the problem, the Cardinal didn't follow through as this NPR report will indicate.

He also housed a priest from Delaware who had these problems and denied knowing anything about the man's problems and is accused of dishonesty by Justice Anne M. Burke of Illinois at NPR.

San Francisco Archbishop George Niederauer, chairman of the committee on Catholic media, told reporters after Monday's opening session that in recent years the political and media landscape has sprouted so many organizations and websites and lobbies using the Catholic label -- and advocating competing agendas -- that churchgoers are confused.

"Catholics will approach us, and approach their pastors in their church, and ask us, 'Well, I hear this outfit is called Catholic and it says this and another says this and another one something else. Can they all be Catholic and disagree so vehemently with each other?' That does challenge us to makes sense of it and to speak as bishops," said Niederauer, who is widely regarded as a media-savvy prelate with a moderate temperament.


This confusion is in no small part the responsibility of Bishops like Niederauer whose glowing admiration for the film "Brokeback Mountain" was evident, but he did after all, apologize for giving Holy Communion to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence at Mass. All of this wouldn't have been possible without all of those "outfits" that reported the event on the internet. One wonders if anything would have been done at all if the story had only been aired in the centenarian publication, The Wanderer.


Link to article...

Catholic Church pushes Bill in House, Chapels.

Abortion rights supporters say that Bishops don't speak for the majority of Catholics, but this article says that 68% of Catholic actually support the Stupak Amendment. The author of the following article says that the US Bishops have reached out in a very definitive way on the issue of abortion, more than would have been possible for various pro-life groups.

Boston Herald

WASHINGTON — For weeks, the Catholic Church has asked its parishioners to work toward ensuring tough language restricting federal funding of abortion is included in the federal health care overhaul.

The church has gone so far as to insert a prayer into the weekly bulletins in the pews of its dioceses across the country, one that implores Congress to "act to ensure that needed health care reform will truly protect the life, dignity and health care of all."

But while the church is trying to rally its forces outside of Congress, it is also using its leverage within.

Read further...

Monday, November 16, 2009

Pope: Church exists to evangelize the whole World

VATICAN CITY, (VIS) - World Mission Day, which falls on the
third Sunday of October, provided the theme for the Pope's remarks before praying the Angelus on Sunday.

The Holy Father told the thousands of faithful gathered at noon in St. Peter's Square that World Mission Sunday represented, "for all ecclesial communities and for each Christian, a powerful call to commit themselves to announcing and bearing witness to the Gospel to everyone, especially to people who do not yet know it".

"It is the light of the Gospel that guides peoples on their journey and leads them towards the realisation of the one great family, in justice and peace, under the paternity of the one good and merciful God", he said. "The Church exists to announce this message of hope to all humankind which in our time 'has experienced marvelous achievements but which seems to have lost its sense of ultimate realities and of existence itself'".

On World Mission Sunday "the Universal Church places the spotlight on her own missionary vocation. Guided by the Holy Spirit she knows she is called to continue the work of Jesus Himself, announcing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, which is 'righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

"This Kingdom is already present in the world as a force for love, freedom,solidarity, and respect for the dignity of all mankind; and the ecclesial community feels in its heart the urgent need to work so the sovereignty of Christ may be fully achieved".

Benedict XVI then went on to mention "the missionaries - priests,religious and lay volunteers - who consecrate their lives to taking the Gospel into the world, facing discomforts and difficulties, sometimes even full-on persecutions.

"My thoughts go out to, among others, Fr. Ruggero Ruvoletto, a 'fidei donum' priest killed recently in Brazil, and to Fr. Michael Sinnot, a religious kidnapped a few days ago in the Philippines. And how can we not think of what is emerging from the Synod of Bishops for Africa in terms of extreme sacrifice and love for Christ and for His Church?"

The Pope then thanked the Pontifical Missionary Works for their service "in encouraging and educating missionaries". And he concluded: "I invite all Christians to make a gesture of material and spiritual support to help the young Churches in the poorest countries".
- - -

Deacon Keith Fournier asks that you join with us and help in this vital mission by sending this article to your family, friends, and neighbors and adding our link (www.catholic.org) to your own website, blog or social network. Let us broadcast, we are PROUD TO BE CATHOLIC!

Link here...

Cardinal George advocates Medical Wealth confiscation

Cardinal George at CNS is quoted here describing the priest's role as a conduit for Democratic Party talking points and Socialist wealth redistribution programs. It's well nigh impossible to imagine what expertise this Cardinal has in the health care field, but he has a large captive audience and is good at uttering soothing words of encouragement. It would be understandable if not a few people are more confused than ever about the role of a priest.

Recently, he noted, "we have tried to be such a leaven in the debate about health care. It is not for us to speak to a particular means of delivering health care; it is our responsibility, however, to insist, as a moral voice concerned with human solidarity, that everyone should be cared for and that no one should be deliberately killed."


Read entire article...

Oregon Province sexual abuse claims may reach 500

Number of victims alleging abuse exceeds expectations
[Seattle University Spectator]
By Joshua Lynch

Updated: Thursday, November 12, 2009

Attorneys representing victims of sexual abuse in a case against the Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus are finding they have more clients than they expected.

As a Nov. 30 deadline for filing claims against the Oregon Province approaches, some plaintiff’s attorneys are estimating that the total between several firms will reach 500 claims alleging abuse by as many as 80 Jesuits.

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Losing's a Habit and the Jesuits are Losing...

A Questionable Champion of the Soviet "martyr" Jesuits: the infamous Bishop Hubbard



Catholic News service is eager to get the full service story about the USCCB which can't get its story straight about some revolutionary Jesuits who thought they knew better how El Salvadoran citizens should spend their money than they themselves knew, and promised us, that there was severe political repression without giving us any concrete examples or even a demonstrable understanding of economics. Unfortunately, the Salvadoran Army gave the Soviet interlopers in Central America something they could really use, "martyrs". Despite years of actual oppression by the Socialist regimes for whom they worked, Cuba and the Soviet Union, these Jesuits didn't and still don't have much to say about how they'd improve the lot of the ordinary Salvadoran; nothing workable, just pie in the sky penumbras. Maybe land reform would be the ticket? That didn't work either, and the El Salvadoran government the Communist rebels and their Jesuit allies were trying to topple actually enacted those reforms too.

But the USCCB, ever eager to show how it believes in Central Command Economy, has today stepped in to remind America about a few traitorous Jesuits who supported Communist insurgency in Central America and got in the line of fire for their troubles.


BALTIMORE (CNS) -- The U.S. bishops added their collective voice to those of others in honoring the memory of the six Salvadoran Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and her daughter, all of whom were assassinated 20 years ago by a Salvadoran death squad.

Bishop Howard J. Hubbard of Albany, N.Y., chairman of the bishops' Committee on International Justice and Peace, said in a statement issued Nov. 16 -- the anniversary date of the murders -- that the bishops joined many others in "commemorating the lives and work of the six Jesuits and their collaborators."


Remaining article...

For years we've been hearing about the shenanigans of the Jesuits. The morally and financially bankrupt Oregon Province, for example. So then, we have a credibly accused and maleficent Bishop who defends causes indicative of outright Marxism. That romantic worker's struggle in Central America. Despite all of the evidence that the Jesuits so engaged were at best fools and at worst scoundrels of the worst possible kind, these clerical men of the left insist we remember them as heroes. These leftists and their sordid connections and questionable associations, who say certain things and believe certain things or at least say they believe certain things.

His fascination with "No Nukes".

Then there's the suspicious suicide of one Bishop Hubbard's detractors, the conservative Father Minkler, just three days after he signed an affidavit denying that he'd written a 1995 letter to Cardinal O'Connor accusing Bishop Hubbard of homosexuality. Suspiciously, the autopsy took months to complete and was finally ruled a "suicide". In the wake of accusations, the Diocese hired an independant investigator, Mary Jo White to clear his name. According to John Aretakis, an attorney for many of the alleged victims of Bishop Hubbard and his priests, the cost went into the millions. Bishop Hubbard and his liberal Colleague, Bishop Mathew Clark both took lie detector tests but habitual liers can defeat them.

Link to another article by Matt C. Abbott in 2004...

And from Maurice Pinay about Bishop Hubbard's rabbinical associates also involved in pederasty and giving him some public good PR in the wake of the scandal, here.

Cardinal Schönborn is coming to Medjugorje Shrine

By the turn of the year, Cardinal Schönborn is coming to Medjugorje, says kathnet. He'll be meeting with the "Seer" and the Oratory of the Cenacle Society and Schwester Elvira as well as the local ordinary who is a Medjugorje-critic.

Speaking in glowing terms about the condemned apparition, the Cardinal insists that Our Lady has revealed herself to Her children in a "special way" at Medjugorje.

Link to article...

Committee for the release of Mohammad-Reza: Iran

The International Monarchist Conference (IMC), a confederal organization regrouping 64 monarchist organization representing 29 nations, protests against the pronounced death sentence against three Iranian monarchist activists, members of the Association of the Iranian Monarchy : Mohammad-Reza Ali Zamani, 37 years old, Hamed Rouhinejad, 24, and Arash Rahmanpour, only 20. Mohammad-Reza- Ali Zamani appeared last on August 8th, together with the French citizen Clothilde REISS, before the Tehran Revolutionary Court.All three men have just been sentenced to death becauseof the part they played in the protest movement that shook the Islamic Republic after the presidential elections last June.

Together, let us formulate the demand to release the political prisoners of Iran !

Anyhow, the date of November 3, has passed and we don't know what happened to the captured Monarchists, but we'll let you know as soon as we find out. In the meantime, check out the page here for some history on Iranian history and that of the Pahlavi royal family.

Link to English Language Version...

America Magazine decries Catholicism in the USCCB

While the liberal establishment in the American Episcopacy is as old as the founding of the United States, America Magazine remains as predictable as ever, as their propaganda machine for the DNC at prayer attempts to broker liberalism and modernism as sensible and exclude actual Catholicism as mere political cynicism. One gets the feeling that you just know some of them are simmering about certain Catholic Dioceses' support for Defense of Marriage plebiscites in the last election. It's high time the USCCB shows some political independence from America's ruling elites, but the Jesuits don't think that deeply any more. Their old-style opposition to the liberalising power of the State is a long ways back in the mirror. You'd think their experience in the Spanish Civil War would give them a distaste of liberalism, but here they are.


The USCCB begins its annual plenary session today in Baltimore. On the formal agenda, the bishops will consider a proposed pastoral letter on marriage (which they should scrap and start over) and the final approval of Mass translations (some are good, some not so good but it is past time to fight over them anyway). Behind the scenes, the issue that dominates all the others is the polarization within the Conference, a polarization that seems to have been imported from the political world into the USCCB. [Modern Jesuits like to create equivalence between those who espouse Catholic points of view and political righists to delegitimize their positions] The most important thing for the bishops to do this week is to heed the voice of their president, Cardinal George, to resist the political categories of left and right and return to “simply Catholicism.”


Link here...

Indeed, the Jesuit commentator makes an attempt to salvage a bit, a situation that's looking increasingly tenuous for the modernist Jesuit.

As Pope Benedict made clear in his encyclical Caritas in Veritate, life issues are social justice issues and social justice issues are life issues. The Church’s teaching must be received, understood and accepted integrally. I know that integralism is a word with a sinister history, espoused by Catholic witch-hunters during the reign of Pius X and the last years of Pius XII to brand anyone who disagreed with them as heretics. Among those caught in the web of suspicion in the reign of Piux X were Giacomo della Chiesa and Angelo Roncalli, who became Pope Benedict XV and Pope John XXIII respectively. That is not the integralism Pope Benedict XVI calls for.


Weak, Father Journalist, just because your boys were under suspicion of heresy, doesn't mean you won't be some day too.

Yes indeed, perhaps the days of going over to Fr. X. SJ's apartment, spinning Dylan records and the like are coming to an end. Seems like the Jesuits are a little more concerned these days. As their senses become enfeebled thanks to the windy decrepitude of icy old age, they're starting to find themselves outnumbered. They've always been outgunned, at least in this century, but now they have to worry that they're a minority and what's worse is that "witch-hunters" in the Church aren't too pleased with their frequent heterodox musings and crypto-Marxism.

More certainly of what the Jesuits are unhappy about these days are the calling into question of some of their fellow-traveller initiatives like ACORN and CCHD. These organizations have a lot in common with modern Jesuits, adjetives like "irrelavent", "obsolute", "Post-Marxist" and "effeminate" come to mind. But the worst of all for them is that the modern Jesuit is subject to the same kind of exposure for their charlatranry that ACORN was. Yes, you too can be held accountable by Dominican Inquisitors some day, God willing.


NCCB reports on ACORN....

Sunday, November 15, 2009

Greek Orthodox solidarity in face of crucifix ban

The Turks were a good incentive for talks of reunion at the Council of Lyon in 1276 and at Ferrara-Florence in 1438. Now we together face both Islam and Secularism at the same time. Examples like this are further encouragements for those of us who are optomistic about an end to the Great Schism.

The Greek Orthodox Church is urging Christians across Europe to oppose a ban on crucifixes in classrooms in Italy. The ban came as a result of a November 3 ruling by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in France that the presence of crucifixes violated a child's right to freedom of religion. The European Court of Human Rights found that the compulsory display of crucifixes violated parents' rights to educate their children as they saw fit and restricted the right of children to believe or not to believe. Immediately after the ruling, Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said the crucifix was a fundamental sign of the importance of religious values in Italian history and culture and was a symbol of unity and welcoming for all of humanity — not one of exclusion.

Read Further...

What happened to Msgr Dale Fuschek?

Diogenes knows.

Former Diocese of Phoenix priest Dale Fushek is the founder of LifeTeen ministries. In 2005 he was charged with ten misdemeanor counts of criminal sexual mischief, which included indecent exposure, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, and assault. One of the misdemeanors is alleged to have occurred in the hot tub of Fushek's parish rectory. I couldn't find the Sacerdotal Guidelines for Hot Tub Hospitality at the USCCB's website, but it would appear that Fushek would have failed in any case to abide by them.

Link to Diogenes...

Heretical Jesuits celebrate 20th Anniversary of Soviet "Martyrs"

Despite the established fact that the Salvadoran rebel FMLN was determined as the guerrilla force backed by Soviet military intervention by the State Department as early as 1981 [El Salvadoran Civil War, Globalsecurity.org], quite a few leftists within the Jesuit order are still prepared to defend their involvement on the losing side in the war, and they get to teach your children at places like Creighton, Gonzaga, Georgetown and Loyola, at high prices, indoctrinating them, or at least trying. One wonders how these tired fellow travellers keep doing what they do.

The Jesuits engaged in armed struggle while identifying their socialist struggle with "defending the rights of the poor against the rich". Jesuit priests gave aid and support to these revolutionary agents of the Soviet Union and this is something they won't be discussing tomorrow.

So many times, leftist sympathizers ignore the reality of the Soviet role played in the El Salvadoran civil war, and on November 16th, they are going to commemorate this deception by remembering the Liberation Theology Jesuits who got caught in the middle of the fighting where they occasionally took up arms on the wrong side and paid the ultimate price as men must do. Unfortunately, the word "martyr" is applied to these men, but a look at the individuals engaged in this mad adulation reveal a pedigree of dissent from Church teachings and active if not passive engagement with Marxist causes.

Even the Democratic Congress places itself under suspicion by its recent passage of a resolution to commemorate these communists.

H. Res. 761, remembering and commemorating the lives and work of the six Jesuit Fathers and two women on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of their deaths at the UCA in San Salvador on November 16, 1989. The United States House of Representatives is set to pass House Resolution 761.


See Jesuit website depicting Communists as "martyrs".

Related article... portraying the commemoration taking place in all Jesuit Colleges and Universities in the United States. One wonders if anyone will show up.

The head of the Serbian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Pavle, has died in Belgrade, the Church has announced.




The patriarch, 95, became leader of the Church in 1990. He was admitted to the city's military hospital two years ago.

Though he reportedly suffered from heart and lung conditions, the Church did not specify the cause of death.

Most of Serbia's population of seven million people are Orthodox Christians. President Boris Tadic said this was "an irredeemable death" for the nation.

"There are people who bond entire nations and Pavle was such a person," Mr Tadic said in a statement.

"His death is also my personal loss," the president said.

Bishop Amfilohije, who has served as acting head of the church during most of Pavle's illness, broke into tears as he held a prayer after announcing the death.

Serbs mourn. Bells tolled from Serbian churches, as the government announced three days of mourning, beginning on Monday.

Another bishop, Lavrentije, said the patriarch's death was no reason to be sad.

"The Serbian people now have someone to represent them before God better than anyone else," Lavrentije said.

The Church's highest body, the Holy Synod, may announce as early as Monday when a new patriarch will be chosen - usually after at least 40 days.

Serb interests

Pavle was a respected theologian and linguist, known for personal humility and modesty.

After the fall of communism and rise of Serb nationalism, the Church regained a leading role during his rule.

At the beginning of the Balkan wars that followed the dissolution of Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, Pavle said - according to Serbian state television: "It is our oath not to make a single child cry or sadden a single old woman because they are of another religion or nation."

But critics accused him of failing to contain hardline bishops and priests who supported Serb paramilitaries against Catholic Croats and Bosnian Muslims.

After those wars, Pavle became more directly involved - openly criticising Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic, after he lost Kosovo following Nato's intervention.

Since then, the Serbian Orthodox Church has strongly supported the Serbian government in its efforts to stop Kosovo's independence drive.

"Kosovo is not only a question of territory, it is a question of our spiritual being," he said after Kosovo's declaration of independence.

Link to article...

Argument of the Month Club Minnesota

Like the Theology on Tap, and its various iterations, the Argument of the Month, features monthly speakers throughout the fall and winter and is gaining in popularity. It's a place where men of all ages can get together and celebrate conformity and find some hope for the future as they struggle with the moral vacuity of the world while trying to raise families and protect them from without. The Star and Tribune gives a positive article. Here, Remnant Editor Michael Matt is debating the Headmaster, Dr. Kevin Ferdinandt of Providence Academy, a local Catholic K-12 on the merits and demerits of homeschooling.

There are two aspects of the Argument of the Month Club that you'll get no argument about: It's fun, and it's exploding in popularity.

The theological debates that began with six men at a back table in a St. Paul restaurant now are monthly meetings that routinely draw 300-plus people, some from as far away as Cambridge, St. Cloud and Wabasha.

"I came last month for the first time and it just blew me away," said Lyle Bowe, a West St. Paul resident who attended his second meeting Tuesday evening. "I've been telling everyone what a great evening it is. The food is great, the company is great, the arguing is great."

It's an all-male group, which is itself something of a phenomenon, said the Rev. John Echert, rector of St. Augustine Catholic Church in South St. Paul, which hosts the meetings in its basement.

"This is a very unique success story," he said. "Getting women's groups together in a church is often very easy, but getting men's groups together is tough. And to get this many men together. ... " He shook his head as he looked around the room before adding with a tinge of awe: "It's unprecedented."

It's happening almost completely by word-of-mouth. The club has a website (www.aotmclub.com) and sweatshirts (emblazoned with "What is truth?"). "That's it in terms of getting the word out," said Josh Teske, the club's webmaster. "We don't do any advertising."

The club was started by Roman Catholics and still focuses on issues that affect Catholics, but it's often done from a big-picture perspective that reaches beyond Catholicism and draws a broader crowd.

"We have people of all faiths here," Echert said, and, sometimes, even nonfaiths, he added, pointing to a debate in January between a religious studies professor and a representative of Minnesota Atheists. "He brought several of his atheist friends along for support, and we were glad to have them."

The group's growth has forced changes in format, but the basic approach remains the same, said Kent Wuchterl, the club's director and one of its half-dozen original members 10 years ago.

"We were all apologetics," he said in a reference to early Christians who defended their faith when they were criticized by outsiders. "We were looking for a way to defend our faith. So we took over a table at the St. Clair Broiler and started arguing."

Topics were picked in advance, with three men assigned to each side of the debate. Being at a restaurant, they also felt obligated to order something. Thus was set the format: food and a fight.

As the group grew, it had to keep moving to bigger venues and different approaches. Everyone was encouraged to join in the debate until attendance topped 80, at which point it became more chaotic than insightful.

The club started bringing in two speakers to hold a formal debate, which was then followed by an open-mike session in which club members could question the speakers. Once attendance reached 200, that also started getting unmanageable. Now the members submit written questions during the debate that are passed on to a moderator.

The meal is cooked by club members in St. Augustine's kitchen. It's a "manly" meal that consists heavily of meat -- heavy enough to challenge the strength of the paper plates -- followed by dessert. Tuesday's was a chocolate layer cake served in pieces only slightly smaller than a football. Even then, many went back for seconds of both courses. The cost is $12.

"Where else are you going to eat this well for $12?" Wuchterl asked. Or, he could have added, eat this much?

The crowd is eclectic. The meetings draw people as young as 8 (sons attending with their fathers) and as old as 90. Men in business suits pull up chairs next to guys in blue jeans. Their level of interest is apparent: In three hours, not a single cell phone rang, even though there were no signs asking members to turn them off.

The topics the club considers are not light; recent ones have included debates on what is a "just" war and end-of-life issues. Tuesday's debate on home schooling pitted Kevin Ferdinandt, director of Providence Academy's upper school, against Michael Matt, an ardent home schooler and the author of several books on Catholicism.

The debates can get heated, but Echert, who also serves as the de facto sergeant of arms, is ready to step in if things get nasty. That rarely happens.

"Sometimes we'll clearly line up behind one speaker or the other, but it's respectful," said Paul Notermann of Inver Grove Heights. Seated next to him was Terry Beaudry of Roseville, who added: "We're all here for a good time."

Echert estimates that about half of the regulars are there for the camaraderie and the other half for the debate. Andrew Lynch, in his third year of driving up from Owatonna for the meetings, clearly falls in the latter category. He often brings along a group of friends, and they continue the debate all the way home.

"I like to argue," he said. "I'll take either side, sometimes just to keep the discussion going. This is the highlight of my month. I wouldn't miss it."

If there's one concern for the club, it's what to do if it keeps growing. St. Augustine can handle about 100 more before the fire codes become a concern. Club officers have offered to help launch spinoff groups; a group from Alexandria came to observe an earlier meeting. Or they might have to start taking it on the road.

"We've talked about moving it around the Twin Cities, sort of a traveling argument," Wuchterl said. "I don't know what we'll do, but we'll work something out."

They can always argue about it later.

Jeff Strickler • 612-673-7392

Read further...

Should the Archdiocese of DC bend to Liberal Pressure?

The following article and poll in Washington Post asks the question: should Washington D.C. be able to force the Catholic Archdiocese there to follow a law it considers immoral?

Read more at The American Catholic.

And here...