Showing posts with label Dogmatic Preamble. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Dogmatic Preamble. Show all posts

Friday, March 16, 2012

Society of St. Pius X in the CDF Again

Investiture and Ordination in the Seminary of
St. Pius X in Econe
Update:  The news has just come in from VIS, and it doesn't really bring up anything new.

  A meeting between some of the most Liberal Churchmen in the Church (++Schoenborn, ++Koch +Muller) with the former Archbishop of San Francisco, William Cardinal Levada, have expressed a negative judgment.

Regardless of their opinion, it really isn't all that negative, but  it should still be pointed out that Liberal "experts" have been ignored  in the past by a reigning pontiff, much to the chagrin of public opinion.  For example, when Humanae Vitae was promulgated by Paul VI.

Vatican. On Saturday the Priestly Society of St. Pius X will participate in another meeting with the CDF.  Supposedly, the Congregation will give its reaction  Society of St. Pius X's  answer to the Dogmatic Preamble.

Here's the pertinent text:

"At the end of today's meeting, moved by concern to avoid an ecclesial rupture of painful and incalculable consequences, the superior general of the Society of St. Pius X was invited to clarify his position in order to be able to heal the existing rift, as is the desire of Pope Benedict XVI". 

Wednesday, January 4, 2012

Berlin's Archbishop Woelki For Dialogue With the SSPX

Edit: this is the first that it's clear that the Society is expected, at least according to Archbishop Woelki, to accept the Second Vatican Council completely. It's also important to note that the Society continues to distance itself from and isolate Bishop Williamson.

The leadership continues to hold out hope for the "conservative" leadership of the Church.

Deutschlandradio Kulture interviewed Berlin's Archbishop Woelki about a relationship with the SSPX.  Here is an excerpt from the interview.

D-Radio:   But to whom is this rejection directed -- perhaps even to a Pope, who still directed a reconciliation with the Ultra-orthodox Society of St. Pius X, even though aware a member was a holocaust denier? [This again...]

Woelki:  For that reason, I believe the Pope has performed a very importance service.  His task consists precisely in forming reconciliation and unity, and in fact it comes straight from his office and in Tradition, which is also that of Taizé.  So it is not enough now to just close a group out, rather we stress here also the political arena is just as important as dialogue, to get to know people, and only then, when one speaks to another, can one integrate and then reconcile.  And I think that this is the important mission of this Papal office, to stand for the unity of the Church and seek this unity of the Church.

D-Radio:  But isn't it difficult to communicate and integrate this group of all things?

Woelki:  I don't know.  Therefore I think one doesn't know about this group ... It is surely a difficult group, it is not my group and one has to be very careful to maintain that now all, who belong to this group, are holocaust deniers or even belong to radical right bodies of thought.  There is in fact one of these, completely  insensible and irrational men, who did this, and so far as I know, the other so-called Bishops, who are also not approved by us,  by the Catholic Church,  have even distanced themselves from this man.

No, there is a group, that has problems with accepting certain statements in the Second Vatican Council in a certain way.  And I think that the dialogue has shown that the Pope is clearly on the level with the Second Vatican Council, and that he and now also these men, whom he has commissioned to lead this conversation has made it clear that the SSPX must accept statements about the Second Vatican Council otherwise no communion with the Catholic Church is possible.

Commentary from SSPX German District:  HE Bishop Woelki here represents the represents the course of most conservative Church leaders: In contrast to the enemies of the Society, they do not throw all the Bishops and priests in the Williamson-bag and recognize that the Priestly Society of St. Pius X has nothing to do with right--wing ideologies.

Because the current course is now set in Rome is on reconciliation and brotherhood,  the discussions with the Society will continue.

The Society of St. Pius X is regarded in this way as a mule, who has simply not yet understood that the Council "as a whole" has to be accepted.

This approach completely bypasses the problem of course:  The Catholic Church is in complete collapse 50 years after the Council.  You must pray for Msgr Woelki and all the other more or less conservative bishops that they come to appreciate at last this context:  the reason for the massive apostasy is the Council, at least those portions  that the progressives exploit with their new theology of the equality of all religions,  to prey on the Church.   This is how the Church has lost its purpose and consciousness of mission, and in consequence the loss of Holy Mass (replaced by a community meal) and therefore also vocations.

So long as the bishops do not recognize the crisis in the Church and their causes, there will remain a dialogue, which completely misses the point.

Link to SSPX German District...

Wednesday, December 21, 2011

SSPX's Response to Vatican, No Response

Bishop Fellay
Edit:  The response to Rome has just come in and it brings to mind an episode from the life of Caligula by Suetonius in his 12 Caesars.  The erratic Caligula hated people who disturbed his dramatic entertainments and sent one offending officer as a messenger to Ptolemy of Mauritania bearing the message, "do nothing at all, either good or evil, to the bearer of this message."

Man, that Vatican Insider continues to contemptuously refer to the Society of St. Pius X as "Lefebvrians" and even refuses to grace the name of Fellay with the title of Bishop.  

According to  Vatican Insider, the Vatican has received a response from the Society, but there is nothing, only a "documentation".  Tornielli seems to think that Bishop Fellay is taking more time to defer the decision, or ask for clarification and possible changes to the text proposed by the Holy See.

Tornielli has taken some time to dwell on alleged internal difficulties within the Society, but he hasn't taken any time to talk about the internal difficulties faced by the Church at large, what with the pornography scandal in Germany and the rebellious attitude of the German speaking clergy in general, who, despite all of their financial wealth, can't seem to figure out who they serve.  

Bishop Fellay's recent response notwithstanding, no one has addressed his request for understanding in light of the Church's massive decay.

 Link to Vatican Insider, here...

H/t: Messa in Latino...

Apparently, there is also speculation about some kind of coup, which Tornielli is suggesting going on within the SSPX by a discredited Belgian Sedevacantist site.

Thursday, December 15, 2011

Bishop Fellay is Hopeful Rome Will Reconsider

The Society asks Rome not to ignore the obvious problems any more.  Actually there is no cause for optimism.
Bishop Bernard Fellay

(kreuz,net) In the next days the Society of St. Pius X will give it's answer to the Vatican about the dogmatic Preamble.

This is what Vaticanist, Andrea Tornielli said on ''.

The answer contains a counter proposal.

This will state that the Society can not recognize the Pastoral Council in positions related to ecumenism, religious freedom and collegiality.

The Request of the Vatican

On the Feast of the Immaculate Conception the General Superior of the Society of St. Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay, discussed the negotiations with the Holy See.

It was an occasion to address the problem with the dogmatic Preamble.  It lay in the condition that the Council must "be accepted".

But it may be criticized.

Rome has moved a bit

Msgr. Fellay has found also "interesting" statements in the Preamble.

This is so the Society recognizes, that some points, which make difficulties with the Council, are understood only in the light of continuous, enduring Tradition and the teaching office.

More still: Every interpretation of doubtful Conciliar texts, which contradict the Church's teaching office, must be discarded.

This is what the Society has always said -- maintains Msgr. Fellay.

The problem:  The Vatican's practice is in contradiction to this principle.

"They say, everything, what was done in the Council is good, that corresponds to Tradition, ecumenism and religious freedom" -- continued the Bishop.

The Problem is Not the Society

With respect to the discrepancy with the principle and its practice, Msgr Fellay identified that it is the "greatest of problems".

He also insists that the Society and the Vatican do not understand the terms "Tradition" and "teaching office" in the same way.

At the same time he praised the Preamble as "a gesture on the side of Rome".  This gesture surprised him.

Because the doctrinal talks themselves had clearly shown both sides not to be united.

Actually, despite this clear disunity, Rome asked for the acceptance of the Council.

The Society answered: "We can't do it".

Msgr Fellay's proposal:  The Vatican should "try to understand that the Society is not the problem, rather there is a problem in the Church."

The Church is Disintegrating

Msgr Fellay still has great hope that Rome will reconsider.

At the same time he recognizes the magnitude of the collapse.

As an example he described a congregation of sisters, which was once widespread in France.

In the meantime the community has three nuns between the ages of thirty and forty years of age, and in the ages of forty and fifty another three sisters.

About two hundred sisters are over seventy years old.

In the age group between twenty and fifty the number is only one less than in the age group over  100.

 Msgr. Fellay's conclusion:  "The Church is laying in death.  She is disappearing.  She has to wake up."

Link to

Monday, November 28, 2011

Msgr Fellay Interviewed in DICI on Preamble

Edit: the door is still open. Discretion is the word of the day. Part of the solution is a waiting game too as more and more Old Liberal Bishops, priests and religious die off and are replaced by younger, more conservative people, as Bishop Fellay says,

Some young bishops and priests who are inheriting this situation are becoming more and more aware of the sterility of 50 years of openness to the modern world. They do not place the blame exclusively on the secularization of society; they are asking about the responsibility of the Council which opened the Church up to a world that was becoming completely secularized. They wonder whether the Church could adapt to modernity to that extent without adopting its spirit.

Why is the Doctrinal Preamble that Cardinal Levada delivered to you on September 14 still surrounded by so much secrecy, both on the part of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and by the Society of St. Pius X? What is this silence hiding from the priests and faithful of Tradition?

This discretion is normal for any important proceeding; it ensures the seriousness of it. It so happens that the Doctrinal Preamble that was delivered to us is a document which can be clarified and modified, as the accompanying note points out. It is not a definitive text. In a little while we will draw up a response to this document, noting frankly the doctrinal positions that we regard as indispensable. Our constant concern since the start of our talks with the Holy See—as our interlocutors know very well—has been to present the traditional position with complete loyalty.

Discretion is required on Rome’s part also, because this document—even in its present state which needs many clarifications—runs a great risk of arousing opposition from the progressives, who do not accept the very idea of a discussion about the Council, because they consider that this pastoral council is indisputable or “non-negotiable”, as though it were a dogmatic council.

Link to DICI...

Wednesday, November 2, 2011

The Statement was "Not Authorized"

Edit: Someone in England was trigger happy.

The red-hot Statement of a British District Superior that the Society would find the Dogmatic Preamble "unacceptable" has disappeared from the net.

(, Menzingen) Only the General House of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is entitled to publish an authorized commentary on the negotiations with Rome.

This was explained by the General House today in a press release.

The occasion was a recent Statment by the British District Superior Father Paul Morgan.

He said that the Superior of the Society would find the dogmatic preamble "unacceptable".

The newsletter has now disappeared from the website of the British District of the SSPX.

The content is not denied

Interesting detail: The media statement by the General House did not deny the statement by the British District Superior content on any point.

It just means general that since the meeting of the Society on the 7th and 8th of October in Rome, several comments were circulating about what the Superior General, Bishop Bernard Fellay, will say to the Vatican.

An official communiqué on the subject would only be published by the General's House.

Therefore applies as long as no further information appears that - the meaningless in content - press release of 7 October still stands.

Link to