Wednesday, June 8, 2016

CDF Explains Relationship to Charismatics -- But Pope Francis?

Pope Francis at Meeting With Charismatic Renewal in Rome 2014
(Rome) The Congregation of Doctrine and the Faith has clarified the relationship between the bishops and the charismatic movements. Moments where Pope Francis will kneel in public, are scarce, and if so, hardly before the Blessed Sacrament. One of those rare moments occurred on 1 June 2014 as Francis took part at the 37th Annual Meeting of the charismatic Catholic movement "Renewal in the Spirit" (Renewal nello Spirito) in the Olympic Stadium of Rome.
It was the first time that a pope participated in a meeting of the charismatic movement. To the Charismatics, to which movement are attributed about 100 million Catholics,  the Argentine Pope earnestly recommended  Cardinal Leon-Joseph Suenens and Archbishop Helder Camara as models.
Pope Francis was already in his time as archbishop of Buenos Aires the charismatic movement sympathetic to. This is connected with the contacts to the evangelicals, about which it is, however, calmed recently.

CDF: "relationship between hierarchical and charismatic gifts"

Jorge Mario Bergoglio  being blessed by evangelical preachers and Father Cantalamessa  (Buenos Aires, 2006)
This coming June 14, the Roman Congregation will issue a document by which the relationship between the bishops and the charismatic movement should be clarified.  Cardinal Prefect Gerhard Müller of the CDF, Cardinal Prefect Marc Ouellet of the Congregation for Bishops, Msgr. Piero Coda, a member of the International Theological Commission, and Maria del Carmen Aparicio Valla, a lecturer at the Faculty of Theology of the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome should take  part.
The document, Iuvenescit Ecclesia (The Church Rejuvenates Itself) by the CDF, is addressed to all bishops and refers to the relationship between "the hierarchical and charismatic gifts for the life and mission of the Church".
This should be remove any ambiguity and  ensure the recognition of the competent hierarchical authority.  In the past there had been friction between charismatics and bishops because the former do not feel bound by the authority of the bishops. [LOL]

But what about the relationship between the CDF Prefect and Pope Francis?

As is known, there is no great agreement between Pope Francis and the Faith Prefect Cardinal Müller in the understanding of the Church and theology. There is also included on the part of the Pope, at least according to media reports,  personal reservations. The Argentine pontiff can feel it if he sees someone as a friend or not.
What role the document Iuvenescit Ecclesia plays in this internal Church  factional dispute at the highest level, can not yet be said. It still can not be ruled out that with this document, Cardinal Müller  is sending Pope Francis very different signals.
One first such opposition was expressed  by Pope Francis a few months after his election, when he received on 6 June 2013, to the board members of the progressive Latin American and Caribbean Conference of Religious  (CLAR). The progressive Chilean publication Reflection y Liberacion soon released an audience transcript. Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi SJ intervened  on this, explaining that the transcript was not "unauthorized," but did not deny its contents.
CLAR delegation to Pope Francis, June 2013
Among other things, Pope Francis confirmed to the CLAR delegation the existence of a " gay lobby " in the Vatican. The Pope himself used this formulation.
In the private audience for the CLAR Board Pope Francis also attacked tradition in the Catholic Church for the first time,  accusing traditionalists of "Pelagianism " and "restorative forces" saying that they "distress" him.
The CLAR representatives, however, got quite a different message, namely from the CDR, who condemned their engagement and theologians because of erroneous and heretical theories. How important this was to the progressive religious, was shown   Reflection y Liberacion published the transcript beginning with this topic. Pope Francis gave the delegation de facto permission to not worry about  the CDF's letter and to just keep going.
The pope said according to Reflection y Liberacion :
"If you do something wrong, get yourself off on the wrong track: that happens! Maybe then you get a letter from the CDF that says you have said this or that  ... Explain what there is to explain, but continue ... Open doors, do something where life calls. I prefer a Church that makes mistakes, rather than one that is sick because it imprisons itself ... "
Statements that have not been denied by the Vatican spokesman Lombardi.
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
Image: RnS (Screenshot)
Trans: Tancred vekron99@hotmail.com
AMDG

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

I was a Charismatic for about 2 1/2 years. A good priest saved me from it. The Charismatic Renewal was harshly criticized by Bl. Pope Paul Vl for its doctrinal errors. In my opinion as a former follower of the Charismatic Renewal I now know it as anti-Catholic to the extreme.

Catholic Mission said...

The Charismatic Renewal doctrine-wise and theologically are no different from the Catholic traditionalists and sedevacantists or the contemporary liberal magisterium.
Like Bishop Athanasius Schneider they interpret Vatican Council II as a break with tradtional ecclesiology based on the strct interpretation of exclusive salvation in the Church.They are cut from the same cloth Cardinal Raymond Buurke and the Rorate Caeli correspondents.
-Lionel

SEHIONUK Catholic community in Birmingham evangelize based on the Cushing-Jesuit Factual Error in Vatican Council II
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/03/sehionuk-catholic-community-in.html


Padre Pio Prayer Groups, Neo Catechumenal Way, Charismatic Renewal, all the religious communities, Diocesan priests...
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/01/padre-pio-prayer-groups-neo.html


Archbishop Jose Octavio Ruiz unaware of error in the affirmation of the Nicene Creed : address to Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/10/archbishop-jose-octavio-ruiz-unaware-of.html


From Charismatics to the SSPX they all assume there are known exceptions to the credal teaching.It's 'I believe in three baptisms and not one'
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/10/charismatics-to-sspx-they-all-assume.html

Unknown said...

Don't you ever her tired of your shameless self promotion? You could give Donald Trump a run for his money.

Tancred said...

It'd be nice if he'd stay on topic and keep EENS discussions where they are pertinent.

I'm no expert, but there's definitely something going on there which isn't healthy.

Catholic Mission said...

Don't you ever her tired of your shameless self promotion?

Lionel:
the subject is the Charismatic Renewal and not me.I have written that the Charismatic Renewal doctrine-wise and theologically are no different from the Catholic traditionalists and sedevacantists, or the contemporary liberal magisterium.
No one can contest this.It is topical and true.
__________________________

Like Bishop Athanasius Schneider they interpret Vatican Council II as a break with tradtional ecclesiology based on the strct interpretation of exclusive salvation in the Church.They are cut from the same cloth Cardinal Raymond Buurke and the Rorate Caeli correspondents.
This is topical, relevant and true. No one has been able to present a counter argument to prove me wrong.
What I have said is uncomfortable, and it is not according to the usual traditional propaganda against the Charismatics and Neo Catechumenale Way, as if the traditionalists have it correct on Catholic doctrine.
-Lionel

Catholic Mission said...

It'd be nice if he'd stay on topic and keep EENS discussions where they are pertinent.
Lionel:
The topic is the Charismatic Renewal and what they beleive as Catholics. They reject EENS since the contemporary magisterium rejects EENS but them so do the traditionalists, who critize the Charismatic Renewal, Neo Catechumenale Way and Medugorje and also do not affirm the dogma EENS without irrational Cushing theology.
Also traditionalists are unable to discuss Catholic salvation without using the Cushingite theology.Their position is irrational and non traditional.
No one can contradict me here among the traditionalists and neither do they want to support me in public, because of their personal interests.
______________________

I'm no expert, but there's definitely something going on there which isn't healthy.

Lionel:
The issue is Catholic Salvation and the theology used by the Charismatics and the traditionalists and you are unable to express your self ?
You are right it is not healthy for the traditionalists, whom this blog supports, to interpret EENS and Vatican Council II with an irrational premise and conclusion, just as do the Charismatics, the members of the the Neo Catechumenale Way and the Franciscans at Medugorje.
When are you and the other traditionalist bloggers going to discuss this?
On another blog post Athelsene criticised my alleged 'Feeneyite'position and I asked him two questions. There is still no trace of him.

He has been doing this for the last few years, like Boniface on Unam Sanctam Catholicam.
Boniface like Ath' will criticise me forr commenting on blogs, but will not respond with reason, theology or doctrine to what I have been saying in the comments.
-Lionel Andrades

Michael Bonici said...

You wouldn't listen to Jesus Christ if he knocked on your door for a chat, Lionel. Or, he probably has but you were too busy indulging your obsessive pathologies to notice.

Anonymous said...

Catholic Mission, That the Charismatics are no different from Traditionalists is false. As a once member of the Charismatic Renewal every Catholic teaching was condemned in the name of Vatican ll, this is called heresy. They claimed Vatican ll said things that the Council never said. The Charismatic Renewal was/is worse than Protestantism. As a Traditional Catholic, the Traditionalists uphold the 2000 year teachings of Christ and his Church. To compare the two is an act of complete ignorance.

Anonymous said...

Catholic Mission, I quote just one of the things Bl. Pope Paul Vl said of the Charismatic Movement, "Many today claim that the Spirit speaks to them. If this Spirit of which they speak says anything contrary to the Teachings of the Church, I Declare it is not the Holy Spirit". Notice the words "I Declare" this comes from the First Vatican Council as being a way of declaring something as Infallible. So the Spirit they proclaim most of the time is not God the Holy Ghost but is merely their own personal ideas or it is from the devil.

Catholic Mission said...

That the Charismatics are no different from Traditionalists is false.
Lionel:
Like the traditionalists they interpret hypothetical cases as being objective in the present times. So for both groups there are known exceptions, to extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS), Vatican Council II ( with exceptions) is a break with traditional EENS, Vatican Council II with exceptions is in agreement with EENS ( with exceptions).
The Nicene Creed for both groups refers to "I believe in not one known baptism for the forigiveness of sin but three or more known baptisms and they exclude the baptism of water.They are the baptism of desire(explicit), baptism of blood( explicit), seeds of the Word(AG 11 - also explicit in 2016) etc).
Both groups do not want to change their position and admit the truth. Since they are supported by the present liberal magisterium, including the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Here are the controversial passages again
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/06/here-are-controversial-passages-again.html
__________________________

As a once member of the Charismatic Renewal every Catholic teaching was condemned in the name of Vatican ll, this is called heresy. They claimed Vatican ll said things that the Council never said.
Lionel:
The Charismaic Renewal use the same irrational reasoning to interpret the Council as do the traditionalists. The difference is that the traditionalists reject the Council while the Catholic Charismatic Renewal like the CDDF accepts it.
___________________________


The Charismatic Renewal was/is worse than Protestantism. As a Traditional Catholic, the Traditionalists uphold the 2000 year teachings of Christ and his Church. To compare the two is an act of complete ignorance
Lionel:
Assuming hypothetical cases are not hypothetical but objective in the present times, is the new philosophy which has come into the Church after the Council of Trent and with the Baltimore Catechism.
Based on this irrational philosophical reasoning we have the new theology which says there are known excepions to the dogma EENs. Even the apologists Mons.Fenton, Fr. William Most and Fr. John Hardon accepted this error.
They are important apologists but any one who assumes hypothetical cases are objective in the present times, has made an objective error.
-Lionel Andrades

Anonymous said...

Catholic Mission, Sounds like your confused with absolute truth and conjecture. Forget the arguments, look at the facts of the Teachings of Christ and His Church and the heresies of Modernism. Don't give new interpretations in place of what good men have solidly said concerning the Faith.

Anonymous said...

I've just read your post on Charismatic renewal criticised by P.Paul VI. Could you please give me a reference for that? Want to understand this better. Louisa.

Unknown said...

thanks