Thursday, August 21, 2014

Who Are The "Pelagians" For Pope Francis? -- A Question About the Korea Trip

Pope Francis and the "Pelagian"
(Seoul) Who are the Catholics,  whom Pope Francis has suspected of heresy, as he refers to them as "Pelagians"? Or has his opinion changed dramatically and transformed the charge of heresy  into  papal gratitude? Secretum meum mihi drew a comparison between the "contradictory" attitudes of the Pope to the same thing. "What is it? Has the Pope changed his mind within a year? He said then or now not what they say, that he said it? He was misunderstood? ", Therefore, asks Francisco de la Cigoña, one of the most famous Catholic blogger in Spain.
"The trip to Korea was a success and at the moment there seems to be nothing startling and the right see would be to deny and clarify." Says de la Cigoña. "Can it be that the Pope learns to be the Pope? God willing."  Certainly he saw in Korea a thriving, missionary church with a very traditional appearance. How had they just experienced why such growth? While the Church in Japan, which is so close and yet so different, does not pick up. "

The Pelagians accusation in June 2013

Pope Francis at his meeting with the Korean religious
Pope Francis at his meeting with the Korean religious
On 6 June 2013 Pope Francis had received the progressive board members of the umbrella organization of religious Latin America and the Caribbean Confederación Latinoamericana y Caribeña de Religiosos y Religiosas  (CLAR) in private audience. The statements of the pope were fabricated from memory of the minutes from memory  of the one-hour meeting, was immediately leaked by  the progressive Chilean journal Reflection y Liberacion  and published by it.
The Vatican was as surprised and was silent.  Although Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi, questioned by journalists on the authenticity of the protocol gave a statement, without saying anything to the content. He limited himself to the statement that there had been a "private meeting", "I have reason not to give an explanation of the content of the conversation." What the Vatican spokesman indirectly confirmed the authenticity of the protocol.
The CLAR-chairman, Sister Mercedes Leticia Casas Sánchez FSP and Secretary Father Gabriel Naranjo Salazar CM felt compelled to apologize for the publication on behalf of the Federation. The content of the statements referred to in the minutes of the pope was explicitly confirmed.

What the Pope said a Year Ago

According to the "exclusive" protocol publication of reflection y Liberacion  Pope Francis said this to the Latin American religious superiors:
I share with you two concerns. One is the Pelagian current that there is in the Church at this moment. There are some restorationist groups. I know some, it fell upon me to receive them in Buenos Aires. And one feels as if one goes back 60 years! Before the Council... One feels in 1940... An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...', but this thing of counting... And these groups return to practices and to disciplines that I lived through - not you, because you are not old - to disciplines, to things that in that moment took place, but not now, they do not exist today...[From Rorate]
It was the first statement which the new Catholic Church leader made to traditional Catholics which is why the statement caused a sensation. Some tried to mitigate what the Pope said with the unauthorized interpretation that he had meant only "certain", "extreme" groups of tradition.

 Non-Pelagians Accused in August 2014

In South Korea, in any event, you seem to have not quite understood what Pope Francis said with his "heresy" -accusation. During his Korea trip which took place on August 16, he also said the following at a meeting with the Korean Conference of Major Superiors.The meeting  was attended by several thousand religious to whom the Pope gave  a speech. What happened there as reported on August 17, inter alia Aciprensa, the most important Spanish-language Catholic News Agency:
"The chairman of the Conference of Major Superiors of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, Fr Hwang Seok-mo, brought Pope Francis, the spiritual gift of 3.7 million rosaries and more than almost 100,000 fasting vows.
We present a gift that we have prepared for Pope Francis. The gift of religious men and women is a spiritual gift: the promise of 3,708,821 rosaries and 118,408 so far.' The meeting of the Holy Father with thousands of religious men and women found himself in the 'school of love' present in Traning Center of Kkottongnae.
The Holy Father was grateful for these sacrifices and encouraged them to be living examples of joy and mercy of God, and stressed the importance of the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience."

Heresy or Model "Sacrifices"?

"The Holy Father was grateful for these sacrifices?" asks blog Secretum meum mihi , "the Pope has so fundamentally changed his mind within one year, that for which he was "worried" about 14 months ago that he condemned it as a heresy, is now thanking?  Are these Korean religious unlike those at the time when the Pope was Archbishop of Buenos Aires, who brought him as a gift a spiritual bouquet of rosaries?  Why do not they say, We're praying for you, we ask ... ', but 'this numbering ...', the Pope had said this against progressive Latin American religious representatives. Now, the same pope thanked in South Korea addressing the conservative Korean religious representatives,  for what a few months ago he was not only "concerned" about but criticized, had even called it a Pelagian heresy.
In Kkottongnae, Pope Francis visited the great center for the disabled of Father John Oh, who led the Catholic Church leader to the cemetery erected there for the aborted children.
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
image: Francisco de la Cigoña / Secretum meum mihi
Trans: Tancred
Link to Katholisches...

Please excuse any hobgoblins.



M. Prodigal said...

Yes, we must pray for a moral miracle and that the pope will consider those traditional Catholics as very faithful and he is to be a father to them as well. He could listen to the founders of the FFI for a start...

Gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gadfly said...

The attitude displayed by Pope Francis on this occasion reminds me of a remark made by the Austrian politician Karl Leuger (paraphrased): "I decide who is a traditionalist."

Anonymous said...

Pope Francis couldn't have said the same thing to Koreans because he does not speak their language. Everything would have to go through an interpreter who would be embarrassed to translate his words. Whereas with Latin Americans, he was free to gossip, insult, scold, and otherwise demonize traditionalists.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the FFI, I haven't received an email from Pray for the Friars for months which used to come fairly regularly so I am concerned. Does anyone hear any news of them? They are in my daily rosary intentions.

Anonymous said...

One of the bigger and more vocal of the dissenters is riding high and is presently in the US on a 'canonical' visit. His blog has hurled many accusations against the holy founders. Another of the dissenters is suing a lay man in Italy who called him a traitor but, if the shoe fits...

These are the kind of men who are now in charge, along with the commissar.

Anonymous said...

Guess why PF is making such a strong silent statement about helping the Christians being slaughtered in mid east?

"And he fears that the Iraqi conflict could make evangelization difficult, especially in those regions."

Maybe once they slaughter all the Christians and destroy all the churches, that will make evangelization easier. But how could PF want to evangelize the Muslims, when he has said prosyletism is solemn nonsense?

and he told young Muslims in Italy to keep on with the Koran and the faith their parents instilled in them?

Those that are Christian, with the Bible, and those that are Muslim, with the Quran. The faith that your parents instilled in you will always help you move on.”

Then PF invited the Muslims to come pray for peace in the Vatican garden - and when he found out the Muslim had perfidiously prayed for victory over Jews and Christians his Gay Ricca Rosica Stasi edited that bit out of the video, but said, "it doesn’t matter, one has to understand how Muslims pray. "

PF is so high on the smoke of Satan he don't even make sense and neither do the filthy idolators cheering him on. I sure understand how they pray and so does God. They'd be luckier to fall into the hands of ISIS.

Anonymous said...

You know it's only because one group are a bunch of Francis cheerleaders, the others are not.

I am sick and tired or good Catholics being vilified because they're not in lockstep with Latin-American clergy who are obsessed with socialism, as if that's the center of Christ's message.

The Message of Jesus Christ is Salvation, and it's not found in the soup kitchen, nor in any other materialist ideologies being taught by some ex-nun or "controversial theologians with new insights."

Jesus knew what poverty was, but he was not poor, nor were His disciples; they were men with means of providing for themselves. Ownership of boats and nets means capital; and certainly, a person doesn't get poor from collecting taxes. They may be poor by this century's standards, but they were modest, not destitute by 1st century standards.

So this Pope Francis Cheerleading Squad going on is more about the fetishizing of poverty, and boy, oh boy, have they found a posterboy in a man who was probably influenced by 19th-century liberalism in his studies, in how his family members taught him, etc. I cannot say anything about this man's holiness, but I can safely say that he is a sinner like the rest of us, at least because even he needs to go to confession.

Anonymous said...

Beware of liberation theology.
This is the true poison .

It is enjoying a dangerous renaissance under this intellectually impoverished papacy.

The devil seeks to 100% focus the minds of deluded catholics into believing that the primary means of salvation consists of alleviating material poverty.

This spiritual delusion is rampant throughout South America and many parts of Europe .

It finds its exponents among many high profile ordained theological intellectuals culminating in the utterly false and heretical concept of a "preferential church for the poor".

This is effectively the attempt to introduce spiritual class
consciousness into catholicism.

philipjohnson said...

the bishop of rome is a true modernist-he speaks out of both sides of his mouth and rejects revealed truth.diabolical disorientation of the modernists is in full flow!providence is revealing itself in this last flurry of heresy in the the end-after this crazy synod-the immaculate heart of mary will triumph.god bless.philip johnson.

Anonymous said...

I think it time for us who love the CaTHOLIC church to stand down an just wait after the snyod in Oct and see If he changes any doctrine. Then see what happens. If their is a break, Let it be on the church of Vac II.

Anonymous said...

Certainly after reading Pope St Pius,s encyclical "Pascendi" one, s suspicions concerning the modernist trend in the current pontificate are reinforced.

Unfortunately similiar suspicions concerning some of the actions and writings of Pope John Paul 2 and Pope Bendict xvi are also
reinforced .

I now find myself in the extraordinary situation of being a practicing catholic who wilfully refuses to pray for the Popes intentions on the basis that I have lost total trust and confidence as to what those intentions might be.

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Walter Kasper wishes to dismantle the sacrament of catholic marriage upon which families are founded.
There can be no other interpretation placed on his relentless crusade of theological destruction.
Pope Francis then speaks warmly and approvingly of Cardinal Kaspers theology.

What are these individuals up to?
Trust has been destroyed by Pope Francis and the man ought to resign immediately.

Jacobi said...

From the beginning Pope Francis has said many things which are, as literally read, not in accordance with the Magisterium. This has led to the “what the Pope really meant” industry. Fortunately none of his sayings, including Evagelii Gaudium, have come into the category of authorative teaching.

It may be that he is learning to consider more carefully what he says. Let’s hope so.

Traditional Catholics, better, however, described as orthodox Catholics with a small “o” of course, i.e., those who hold to the Tradition and Magisterium of the Catholic Church must simply just carry on in the meantime.

Such “orthodox Catholics” are now in a minority in the Western Church which continues to shrink rapidly in numbers of laity and priests, the heterodox church for all its ranting, probably shrinking even faster and heading for oblivion.

This brings us to evangelisation. If we mean by that, converting non-Catholics or pagans, forget it. The evangelising must be directed within the Church at the ignorant confused but well meaning intuitive “Catholics” who seek the means of Salvation.
When we have made some progress there, perhaps in two or three generations, and after another two or three Popes, and with a much smaller Church, then maybe we can think about evangelising other “Christians” and the pagans.

Anonymous said...

I can not accept the view that adult Catholics must evangelise other Catholics.
It is a contradiction in terms.
God is continually dispensing graces and Catholics are the people in the best position to receive them.
Non Catholics do not have that privilege as a general rule since they can not avail of the sacraments which are the primary channels of grace

That is why the conversion of non Catholics to Catholocism is so vital for the well being of the world.

That is why prosletysing is so importent because unless non Catholics are converted then Gods grace in the world will remain blocked.

Anonymous said...

I have to add that prosletysing ie working to convert non Catholics to Catholicism must be a primary fundamental task of the church.

The astounding volte face of pope Francis on this critical issue is utterly baffling .

Why would a sincere pope want his congregation to not expand?

Catholocism has grown worldwide on the basis of prosletysing .

For any pope to say then that prosletysing is " solemn nonsense "
Is a slap in the face to all generations of hundreds of thousands of Catholics who literally gave their lives on the missions prosletysing
the catholic faith.

I can only conclude that Pope Francis is mentally unstable and ought to be deposed forthwith.

Unknown said...

Good posts

Francaigh said...

Who is Pelagian? Good question indeed! If we look at the Pope's ten secrets to happiness, we find no reference at all to God and Jesus; even Sunday is only mentioned as being 'for the family'. If the Pope is right, it means therefore that we can be happy without God and that we don't need to be redeemed by Our Saviour. That's not just Pelagianism, it is an extreme form of Pelagianism!

TLM said...

Took the words right out of my mouth Anonymous. According to PF the Church's only job is to help the poor? What happened to saving as many souls as possible? Guess nothing else you do matters, if you help the poor you are good to go! Seriously, that's all we hear out of him.

TLM said...

Hmm......I'm not convinced that we have another 2 or 3 generations to go. Realizing that only the Father in Heaven knows the hour or the day, I guess we could, but signs don't seem to be giving us a ton of time down the road.

susan said...


Jacobi said...

@ Anonymous, 6.40 pm, whoever you are.

This is a comment not a dissertation. My use of inverted comas indicates that there are people who are nominally Catholics but who are so ignorant of the Faith, or badly educated or in error and therefore heretical, that they are not orthodox members of the Church, albeit intuitive, that is, wanting in some way to become orthodox Catholics, whatever else they are at present, and that is worth a dissertation in itself.

The post-Vatican assault on the Church was primarily from within, as St Pius X constantly warned us, and it is there we have to start.

To ask a confused, ignorant, Church, beset with low morale, desertion, zero recruitment and without any clear objectives either tactical or strategic, which is where we are at present, to go and “Evangelise” outside the Church is, well, daft is not the right word, let’s just say pointless.

Jacobi said...


Anonymous said...

Nobody can judge in the manner that you attempt concerning the inner spiritual state of Roman catholicism within the lives of all its adherents.

Such knowledge belongs to God alone.

Therefore you should be silent.

What is known is that non catholics need to to be converted/prosletyzed to roman catholicism.

That is the bottem line.

In addition any catholic however corrupted is capable of converting a non catholic if they but make the effort.

What you are attempting to do is not possible .

Jacobi said...

@ Anonymus, 3.23, whoever you are.

It is the duty of all Catholics to guard, cherish and protect the Mystical Body of Christ in Earth, the Catholic Church. Therefore, it is our duty to do and to advocate what we can, within our abilities, to set right the grave matters that have afflicted the Church in the post Vatican II period.

That is not just possible, it is our duty.

That can be done in many ways. Prayer is one. Analysis and appropriate action, that is restoring the Church from within, according to one's particular abilities, such as God has given us, is another, and is a binding requirement.

The one thing that will ensure non-Catholics will not be converted at present, apart from a small number with extraordinary perception, is the complete mess and confusion the Church is currently in.

When we sort out that mess, and the Church is once more able to go and teach "All men" with knowledge and confidence, we will have the energy, and non-Catholics might just then have the interest, to consider Catholicism. To presume otherwise is possibly, for who am I to judge, Presumption.

Anonymous said...

@Jacopi 4-29 on Aug 24th.

You have decided to judge the entire catholic church consisting of a billion people.
You then decide that this giant institution must be reformed because according to you it is in a complete mess.

These are gigantic assumptions on your part and I must reject them since there is no way any one person on earth can have the kind of knowledge
required to validiate them truthfully and accurately .

You are judging a billion people.
Just who do you think you are?

How many non catholics have you personally tried to convert in your lifetime?

Tancred said...

It's possible to generalize about an institution, especially when so many of its ministers, from top to bottom, are so demonstrably absent in mind and body from its actual mission.

If I look at the isp, will you be the same person who posted insulting comments about a deceased priest the bottom of whose shoes you aren't fit to clean? I suspect so.

Anonymous said...

So you too are going to generally judge the interior spiritual dispositions of all catholic clergy and laity?

That is not possible and those who attempt to do so are engaging in acts of folly.

Tancred said...

No, I judge their actions and the things they say and don't say, but sometimes I call them what they are, too, "flatterers, mercenaries, hirelings, heretics, schismatics, sodomites and so on."

TLM said...

Anonymous at 6:20AM..........Yes, I believe to an extent you are correct, BUT.....just an FYI, he will not per se change any doctrine, he will throw it to the Bishops to 'Pastor' people and possibly 'twist' doctrine or maybe I should say put a 'spin' on current doctrine in order to accomodate disordered 'married' couples. According also to the outline for the Synod, they will look to 'reinterpret' (their own words here) 'the meaning of natural law.' They will most definitely put a different spin on the entire doctrine of Marriage in the Church if they follow their own outline and if they are successful in 'reinterpreting the meaning of natural law.'...........NOT GOOD........SO VERY NOT GOOD!