Sunday, August 10, 2014

Reformation Anniversary: Dialogue Paper Between the Vatican and Evangelicals?

(Washington / Rome) According to reports from U.S. media, the Vatican intends to Reformation 2017 with the Evangelicals to publish a common "dialogue paper". The aim of the declaration is  a "shared commitment to mission" as the Boston Globe reported.
In 2017 the Protestant world will celebrate  500 years of "Reformation" with Martin Luther's theses at Wittenberg. In 2017   the Catholic Charismatics will also celebrate 50 years of "Revival" by the "Spirit Baptism".
According to the Pope's biographers and journalist Austen Ivereigh in the Boston Globe,  it is a joint document on the "Reformation" which will include three priorities: "the Nicean-Constantinople Creed, which Catholics and evangelicals share; the core of the Catholic-Lutheran declaration of 1999 making clear there is no disagreement over justification by faith; as well as a final section asserting that Catholics and evangelicals are now “united in mission because we are declaring the same Gospel,”  as the KAP reported.

Tony Palmer Handed Pope Francis Text Draft

According Ivereigh the recently deceased Anglo-Irish Bishop, Tony Palmer, passed away on the 24th of June, had issued  in Rome at a meeting of the Pope with Evangelical representatives to draft a joint statement. The title of the document reads: "Declaration of Faith in Unity for Mission."   2017 would be an appropriate occasion for publicly signing  a joint declaration, said Palmer and other Evangelical televangelists,  because of the Reformation anniversary year (1517) and   in the same year, the 50-year anniversary of the emergence of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church (1967 ).
Since the beginning of Pope Francis sent out a number of benevolent signals towards Evangelicals and Pentecostals. These include several informal meetings at the Vatican, a video message and on 28 July the "private visit" the Pope at an evangelical denomination in Caserta. Here, the Catholic Church leader sent a request for forgiveness to 300 invited from all over the world evangelical representatives.

 Relations Between Catholic Church and Evangelicals in Latin America

Observers have put the papal efforts  in the context of the strained relationship between the Catholic Church and the Evangelical Free Churches in Latin America. For several decades Evangelical groups have drawn from the Catholic Church's masses of believers. A movement that is being done in the United States and again is  also associated with the political interests of the United States in its "backyard". Sociologists of religion see in the spread of evangelicalism   among a number of attempts, to export the American Way of Life.

Mission or Cessation of Mission?

Critics accuse the Pope of sacrificing the necessity for salvation of the Catholic Church and indiscriminately recognizing  groups that call themselves Christian or nominally appointed to Christ. Pope Francis was several times to understand that it waives a conversion to the Catholic faith. This raises the question of what a joint statement with the Evangelicals might just mean to the issue of Mission. A shared commitment to evangelization of non-Christians or an official recognition of a mutual  cessation of mission? Along with the one-sided embedding of the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" of 1999, the Catholic-evangelical "dialogue paper" it would  pass over in precedence, the more significant for the Catholic Church and especially more binding declaration Dominus Iesus of the year 2000.
Already in 2013 the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) have published a dialogue paper for the  "Reformation Jubilee",  whose relevance has remained in an almost imperceptible range. From the Lutheran side there were hesitations for the "Luther Year" in 2017, at a mutual recognition several times of  "Lord's Supper".

500 Reformation, 50 years Charismatic Renewal - And 100 years Fatima?

2017 marks not only the 500th year of the "Reformation" and the 50th anniversary of the emergence of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church, but also for the 100th anniversary of the apparitions of Fatima. It's an anniversary that has so far remained unnoticed in Rome.
Text: Giuseppe Nardi


Anonymous said...

In essence all non catholics preach heresy.

How therefore can any catholic organization have a "shared committment to mission" with any non catholic grouping?

It is an absurd nonsense almost on a par with the risible notion of "reconciled diversity".

The only mission the catholic church should be on is the mission to convert ALL non catholics to roman catholicism.

Anything less is an insult to God.

Anonymous said...

50 years since "Catholic" Pentecostalism
100 years since Fatima
100 years since the Russian Revolution
300 years since Freemasonry was birthed
300 years since the coronation of Our Lady of Częstochowa
500 years since the Protestant Revolution
500 years since the Turks conquered the Mamluk Sultanate.

Things in Russia are heating up, Mohammedans are establishing caliphs, and the USA will have a new president in 2016. The Church should be in sack cloth and ashes instead of celebrating mortal sin. If we're experiencing the Passion of the Church then we must be at the crucifixion already.

LeonG said...

Novus Ordo Secloruem = new paradigm = rupture with Sacred Tradition;
new lex lex lex lex provendi....liberal vernacular protestant liturgy..........ecumenism....interconfessionalism.....revisionism......reductionism.....convergence.......pantheism......religious indifference.....loss of the Roman Catholic Faith...........multifaith "church".

Anonymous said...

The relationship between the Catholic Church and Protestants,Buddhists ,Moslems ,Pentecostals ,Judaism ,one wonders what their relationship to Catholics is.

Damask Rose said...

I'm so-o-o not looking forward to 2017.

Dear Anon at 1.07 pm, are the figures really that clear-cut? Wow, if so, scary.

Do you think, if, in 2017, a massive 100ft sink-hole would open up in front of Casa Santa Marta, the powers-that-be would get it?

I would find it most deplorable if the Catholic Church celebrated the anniversary of Luther in any way. Martin Luther, a debauched, foul-mouthed deserter of a Catholic priest. St John Vianney, intercede for us.

Anonymous said...

Well I'm just going to say what everybody is thinking...hopefully Francis will be dead and the carcass sent back to Argentina before he can do any real damage. I don't wish him harm but if he dies I'm not saying I would be all that sad.

Artisoo said...

2017 is coming soon. Hope everything go well.

Anonymous said...

Indeed, the plan is pretty obvious, to form a 'One World' church suitable for a dumbed-down mass of amorphous consumers and happy serfs of the New World Order.

Anonymous said...

I have read a few things written by Luther himself. He was a devil. How anyone would hold him up as their pope and follow him into Hell is beyond me. Wouldn't surprise me at all if psycho Francis had psycho Luther faux canonized. And I am not kidding either.

Anonymous said...

Is the Pope going to use his teaching position to tell the world why they should become Catholics, or why Catholics should remain Catholics?
With the lousy catechesis by his Bishops in many parts of the world for the last 50 years - many of the Catholics in the pews don't have a clue.
Or perhaps Catholic Souls aren't so important to Pope Francis?

susan said...

This whole debacle of a papacy just gets more unbelievable and surreal by the day. How long, O Lord?

TLM said...

I related this story on another site: I recently read an article by a recent convert. She converted from the Evangelical faith to Catholicism. She was extremely confused and distraught, and wondering why she bothered to convert at all because of what she had been hearing out of Rome. (Pope Francis in particular) She converted at great personal cost to her......lost friends and some family in the process, and was wondering at this point what she should do. Should she just give in and go back to her Evangelical community? She didn't really know why not since it 'didn't really seem to matter', according to what she'd been reading.

This sad story, I'm afraid is just the tip of the iceburg of the fallout I'm afraid we will be seeing if this current Pontiff keeps his form. And this is NOT to speak of current Catholics that are already 'on the cusp' of jumping ship.

Another interesting post I saw was: 'OK, so now how are we as Catholics supposed to evangelize?' 'I guess we're supposed to just tell everyone to stay where they are, because there's no need to cross the tiber.'

This Pope is causing massive damage, that I'm wondering if the Vatican has any damage control in the works. Confusion, Division and Anxiety is the order of the day in the Church of Christ. There is no way this is edifying to Catholics anywhere.

Damask Rose said...

"...that I'm wondering if the Vatican has any damage control in the works."

I must admit that when I read this some dark Machiavellian scene worthy of a Medici or Borgia passed before my eyes...

I visioned a Cardinal, draped in ancient red vestments, in the stillness of night, treading silently but resolutely along Renaissance corridors within Vatican walls determined to save the Church at all costs. Peering down at him are eyes from faces painted by great masters long gone, the only witnesses. With a rather large jewelled signet ring on his finger, only the Cardinal knows that once the jewelled coverlet of the ring is flipped open by a tiny catch, an odourless powder rests inside, ... a powder that leaves no trace...

Well, do you reckon I could compete with Dan Brown's 'Angels and Demons? I was heartbroken when it transpired that Ewan McGregor murdered the Pope. I thought he made a fine priest and Camerlengo.

Perhaps I ought to be more charitable at continue my story thus...

...a powder that leaves no trace... The Cardinal finally reaches his destination. He turns the ornate door handle, opening the door. A sliver of light peeps through the heavy brocaded damask curtains lighting his way to a chair. He drops down into it, flips open his ring, moistens an index finger, dips it into the powder and then licks his finger. He grimaces at the bitter taste as he swallows it down with the aid of some water from a glass from a side table nearby. The Cardinal heaves his right leg onto a sumptuous footstool, he sighs at the softness under his foot. He almost breathes a curse. He's had to stay working late for the umpteenth time trying to organise the running of two Papal Households for a Pontiff he's trying hard to respect. A Pontiff who seems oblivious to the extra work involved in his decision to live in an hotel and oblivious to an older man, no, a Prince of the Church, having to traipse what feels like miles along Vatican corridors with gout, in the dark where he could fall. Yes, he could put all the lights on blazing, but then he'd have to notify security. More work. How does he know how long he's going to do overtime? Chaos, that's what it is. He prays every night, for the Pope, the Faithful, those friars, priests, those Christians in Iraq and them to. The murdered Muslims and those others, the Yazidis and the children. The Cardinal goes on believing. Jesus will sort it out and save them. Jesus knows. Should he go to Confession for his angry thoughts? He still wants to be a better man. He offers the ache in his leg up. He sighs. Fed up, that's what he is. Fed up. He offers that up to.

Dear TLM. I do empathise with your friend. I've had quite a distressing time since Benedict's resignation, almost burning myself out. But I feel more at peace now. I couldn't go on with all that frustration and anger. What can I do? It almost seems as though Jesus has left us, but remember that Footsteps poem, perhaps now Jesus is carrying us.

I do find it scary that there is confusion with regards to people converting or us converting them. 'Go teach all nations' Jesus said. Why wouldn't we want people to be in the one True Church. Don't you find it ironic that while we seemed to have ceased converting people, Islam is currently telling people to convert or die. I guess Jesus knows about this quagmire to.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:07 here,

I forgot another important note:

100 years since the founding of the Militia Immaculatae by St. Maximilian Kolbe.

Those figures are clear as day. While Europe was rocked by internal divisions by the Protestant Revolt of 1517, the Turks conquered the Mamluks (Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Mecca/West Arabia) and became an existential threat to Europe for the next ~200 years, that is until King Sobieski broke them at the Battle of Vienna. In 2017 the Church, yet again, will continue to be divided by what Dr. Hans Kung called the protestant reformation inside the Catholic Church. While the Body of Christ loses body parts from spiritual leprosy (ecumenism), ISIS is growing in strength and European Muslims are getting more and more violent, anti-Catholic, and publicly antisemitic - something unimaginable 20 years ago. On top of Islam we have the Marxist world view (errors of Russia) triumphing over the USA and Europe, the Russian bear awakening from a 25 year long hibernation, and Freemasonry continues to be a threat to Catholicism.

But we shouldn't be sad or depressed. The infamous xx17 dates have always been countered by the Blessed Virgin Mary. Our Lady of Fatima counters Communism, the Militia Immaculatae counters ecumenism, and Our Lady of Częstochowa counters Freemasonry. The greatest victories in war are those who were won in the face of adversity, when all odds were stacked against the eventual victors. The triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary will be secound only to Our Lord's victory at Calvary.

John6 said...

Traditional Latin Catholic Mass: Easter Sunday

via McTube for YouTube.

TLM said...

Damask Rose,

No indeed, Jesus has not left us. He will NEVER leave us as orphans. We need to hang on tight, even if we are only hanging on to the hem of His robe......of which I feel like I am constantly doing.

I as well have been distraught over Benedict's resignation, not because I felt he was actually ......"fleeing for fear of the wolves". Visibly we could all see his physical decline. I knew within my heart that his decline was more than just a normal progression..... he was being 'ravaged by the wolves.' Ours is not a battle of flesh and blood, but of 'Principalities and Powers.' The Church, I'm afraid has opened the window a little too wide, and the 'smoke of Satan' has become a raging fire.

The Church, I do believe is walking the road of Calvary. The Church is going through her own crucifixion............But.....She will RISE AGAIN. We need to turn to the Blessed Mother. She will be our guide and our comfort. Turn to her and without a doubt she will guide her children through the path of sorrows. She will be the one designated by God Himself to crush the head of Satan. She says...."At the end, my Immaculate Heart will Triumph." What we are going through now is not the end of the story. The Victory will belong to Jesus and His Bride, The Church.

Anonymous said...

What else but a debacle can you have when two proud fools agree to split the title of papacy?
Should the Argentinian pope resign tomorrow then there would be three little men running around wielding the title of "Pope".
The prestige and respect that the office of pope should have has been badly damaged in this current bizarre set up.
I foresee the very real danger of widespread schism should the Argentinian pope maintain his repulsive and pastorally unsound approach toward what is now termed "traditional" Catholics.

TLM said...

Anonymous........when Pope Francis began his papacy I thought possibly he was trying to reel in non Catholics of the world by 'meeting them where they are.' At least I told myself that was his strategy. 'Reel them in and then when the time was right, hit them with the truth of the Church.' They would be hooked and we would all live happily ever after right?...... Slowly, however, and painfully the realization started to take shape that he was not just 'meeting them where they were', but he was actually 'confirming them in their error.' The excuses that the Catholic media were giving that it was 'the secular media's spin' together with 'a language barrier' could only go so far. It was a temporary 'fix' but the dam would only hold so much water. It's a 'cumulative' thing. If the Pope is trying to reel the world into the Church, just what Church is he trying to reel them into? At this point it is a very legitimate question.

Hamburg said...

Et incohes me.

Anonymous said...

TLM - have your friend read Fr. Berry's The Apocalypse of St. John from 1921 AND Cardinal Manning's The Present Crisis of the Holy See - both available on amazon - she may also want to obtain Fr. Berry's The Church of Christ as well. These will answer most questions for her. Vatican II is the Great Apostasy. These men are antipopes, regardless of eponymous wants to say. They, in my opinion, constitute the six heads of the seven headed beast who may very well be the Antichrist. Satan had to take the Catholic Church down. Christ's chief priests when He came the first time - Annas and Caiaphas - condemned him to death. Recognize that these men were the true leaders of what WAS the True Church at that time in history. History is repeating itself. Annas was a retired high priest - a papal figure. Caiaphas was the reigning high priest - a papal figure. Both sat in the Chair of Moses. the Popes sit in the Chair of Peter. Ratzinger is now retired; Bergoglio sits there. See any comparisons here? Can you see what I am driving at?
Christ allowed His person to be handed over to the powers of this world to be put to death. He has allowed, as part of the prophesied "Great chastisement" of Fatima, His Church, His Bride, to be figuratively and literally "put to death" by allowing men who are non Catholic usurpers of the Chair to impose masonic and zionist new age "worship" upon what was HIs Church, to replace all the sacraments with invalid substitutes, just as Fr. Berry predicted. Berry was an erudite scholar of all things dealing with the end times - both scripturally and commentaries from the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. We also have the papal bulls of Paul IV, Cum Ex Apostolatus, which anathemas any heretic from sitting in the chair if they held heresy previously before election, even if unanimously elected. He commanded the flock to regard such persons for the heathens and warlocks they are. Pius II's bull Exsecrabilis anathemaed any future council that would be called to overturn Church doctrine. Vatican II was called to do just that and did just that - not to mention that Vatican I was never officially closed, so it's legality just from that alone would have been dubious at best.
Read Marie Julie Jahenny, Anna Maria Taigi, Elizabeth Canori Mora and some of the other mystics who all talked about this, and try and also obtain Fr. Rossi's book from the 1800s The Golden Trumpet which you can obtain free as an e book off It also talks about the antipopes sitting in Rome. These recognize and resisters had better stop standing up for the revolution in mitre and cope and start standing up for the pre Vatican II APOSTOLIC FAITH.

Anonymous said...

I see little evidence of any coherent strategy concerning the re- unification of the major Christian denominations.

There is a babble and bubble of high sounding ecclesiastical flummery from the Vatican culminating in the profoundly absurd and oxymoronic idea of " reconciled diversity".