Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Vatican Publishes Pope's Caserta Speech to the Pentecostals

(Caserta / Vatican) The meeting with Pastor Giovanni Traettino was announced as a "private visit" by the Vatican. Subsequently, the Holy See doubled the visit so as not to  snub the Catholics of Caserta.   The visit to his "friend" Traettino was conceived as  an international meeting with leading evangelicals and Pentecostals from around the world. More than 300 selected guests had been invited by Traettino to Caserta. The presence from the USA was particularly strong.  Not present was the Celtic-Anglican Bishop Tony Palmer, who suffered a fatal motorcycle a week previously.  Palmer was a significant architect of the "private meeting" in Caserta.
Meanwhile, the Holy See published the text of the speech, which the Pope gave  before the assembled evangelicals. It in any case is becoming difficult to distinguish between official and private acts of the Pope, as well as between the papal Magisterium and private statements. This is an unusual duality, which Pope Francis introduced, being discussed, which of the two parts is the authentic one.

"Private Conversation" or Part of the Magisterium?

With the publication of the text of the Vatican obviously wants to counteract speculation about what the Pope actually said and what he did not. Such speculation has already repeatedly triggered the papal crisis line, as well as the no less numerous non-protocol-related audiences granted by the Argentine Pope along side the official, and whose contents are only reported from the side of the visitors. Without mentioning  the controversial interviews with the atheists Eugenio Scalfari.
In fact, KNA and KAP published speech excerpts  yesterday    that exceeded in their accentuation from what the Pope actually said (see separate report Pope Asks Pentecostals for Forgiveness: "Catholics who were possessed by the devil" ) .
The official text confirmed that Pope Francis reduces all heretical schisms within Christianity on envy and jealousy caused by the devil. Martin Luther as a jealous envious? The Pope directed no blame and weighed them all equally.

Schisms in the Church's History Reducible to Envy and Jealousy?

According to the newly published text of the Holy See, the Pope said, among other things, (translation Zenit):
When one walks in God’s presence, there is this fraternity. When, instead, we are still, when we look too much to one another, there is another way … which is bad, bad! -- the way of gossip. And we begin to say, “but you, don’t you know?” “No, no, I’m not for you. I’m for this and that …” “I am for Paul,” “I am for Appollos,” “I am for Peter.” And so we begin, and so from the first moment division began in the Church. And it isn’t the Holy Spirit who creates division! He does something that is quite similar to it, but not division. It’s not the Lord Jesus who creates division! He who creates division is in fact the Envious One, the king of envy, the father of envy: the sower of darnel, Satan. He interferes in communities and creates divisions, always! From the first moment, from the first moment of Christianity, this temptation was in the Christian community. “I belong to this one,” I belong to that one.” “No! I am the Church, you are a sect.” And so the one who wins over us is him, the father of division – not the Lord Jesus who prayed for unity (John 17(), he prayed!

What does the Holy Spirit do? I said he does something else, which perhaps one might think is division, but it isn’t. The Holy Spirit creates “diversity” in the Church. The First Letter to the Corinthians, chapter 12. He creates diversity! And this diversity is truly very rich, very beautiful. But then, the Holy Spirit himself creates unity, and so the Church is one in diversity. And, to use the word of an Evangelical whom I love very much, a “reconciled diversity” by the Holy Spirit. He creates both things: He creates the diversity of charisms and then He creates the harmony of charisms. Therefore, the early theologians of the Church, the early Fathers – I am speaking of the 3rdor 4thcentury – said: “The Holy Spirit is harmony,” because He creates this harmonious unity in diversity.

On this path we have very often done the same thing as Joseph’s brothers, when jealousy and envy have divided us. Those who arrived first wanted to kill their brother – Ruben succeeded in saving him – and then sold him. Our brother John also spoke of this sad story. That sad story in which the Gospel was lived by some as a truth who did not realize that behind this attitude there were ugly things, things that were not of the Lord, a terrible temptation of division. That sad story, in which the same thing was done that Joseph’s brothers did: denunciation, the laws of these people: “it goes against the purity of the race …” And these laws were sanctioned by the baptized! Some of those who made these laws and some of those who persecuted, denounced their Pentecostal brothers because they were “enthusiasts,” almost “madmen “ who ruined the race, some were Catholics … I am the Pastor of Catholics: I ask forgiveness for this! I ask forgiveness or those Catholic brothers and sisters who did not understand and who were tempted by the devil and did the same thing that Joseph’s brothers did. I ask the Lord to He give us the grace to admit and forgive … Thank you![...]
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
image: Lettera43
Trans: Tancred vekron99@homtail.com
Link to Katholisches...


Nicolas Bellord said...

Having read the English translation on Zenit it would be interesting to know what the Pentecostalists understood it to mean. Do they see themselves as part of the diversity or the division? As to why a polyhedron is preferable to a sphere I am at a loss!

Anonymous said...

I am the reader of this blog.
I found the following link: http://www.diesse.org/detail.asp?c=1&p=0&id=5631 to pdf file with large excerpts from the famous Paul VI's homily given on the 29th of June, 1972. Unfortunately, I don't speak Italian and I don't want to trust the automatic translator. Is there any chance of translating it into English and then - posting here? I think it could be worth publishing (the Vatican web site provides only an overview of thw homily). The author of the linked article - rev. Massimo Camisasca is a Catholic bishop. Therefore, quotations in the text seem to be credible.

Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque said...

One way to elevate yourself in the eyes of the world is to sow enmity against the historical church and that is easily accomplished by attacking long dead Catholics who can not explain their actions or defend themselves.

Those long dead Catholics being attacked serve as representative of the whole church (synecdoche) that existed prior to V2 and, in contrast, he who attacks the historical church appears as an enlightened, compassionate, and charitable man.

There is a shadow church which is in rupture with the Church that preceded V2 and these timely reminders are welcomed by ABS as they have the capability of making the reality less susceptible to denial.

As to the putative sins of those long dead Faithful, one knows they would not have been caught dead attending protestant services nor would they have been caught dead apologising to those who eviscerated unity and who severed limbs from the Body of Christ

Tancred said...

Ok, will do, thanks!

Michael said...

The phrase “Walking in Reconciled Diversity” is taken from a German Lutheran theologian called Oscar Cullman and is quoted by Cardinal Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, in the book he co-authored with Rabbi Skorka of Buenos Aires, “On Heaven and Earth”.

Please see my full comments with links at:
(Search for comments by "Michael Leon" on that page.)
[OSCAR CULLMANN] took part in the Second Vatican Council as an observer, and Paul VI called him “one of my best friends” (Il Sabato, p. 62).  “During Vatican II, Cullmann, who was a personal guest of the Secretariat for the Unity of Christians, aided in determining the scriptural, christocentric and historical orientation of conciliar theology...more recently, Cullmann has proposed a model for a ‘Community of Churches’ in his work Unity Through Diversity (Brescia, 1988).  Ratzinger praised this model during his meeting with the Waldensians of Rome on January 29” (p. 62).
Bergoglio at Caserta: And, to use the word of an Evangelical whom I love very much, a “reconciled diversity” by the Holy Spirit.
The Church of the future, therefore, will be one (in its pluriformity). Sometime in the future.  What about in the meantime? We are in an “intermediate time” (30 Days, p. 66) of “unity in diversity”. “In my opinion,” explains Ratzinger, “this model could be described  by the well—known term “reconciled diversity”, which is very similar to the my dear colleague Oscar Cullmann’s thoughts on the matter” (p. 67).

Anonymous said...

It is all very simple to grasp.
The Church lost billions with the revelations of clerical abuse .
Dolan was on Nightline and asked why they picked Borgoglio.
" We were looking for someone who was successful running a large Diocese."
Tancred , you posted you did "not care" if the Bishop of Paraguay was a member of Opus Dei. Well you should take note because they and the Legion ,who owns Zenit ,make the big bucks for the Vatican Inc.
none of this is about the Faith! It is about making money.
So many younger men and women are attracted to these groups because their local Diocese are in total confusion and they realize something is missing. The universality ( catholicism) and the True Faith (orthodoxy) are what is missing.
Know that EWTN is controlled by Opus Dei as Arroyo's studios broadcast from the Catholic Communications building in DC owned by Opus .Past President of the KoC and IOR board member Carl Andersen is Opus Dei.
Investment Group Legatus is connected to the pizza man in Fl's LC/RC group.
Now Halleluia clap your hands and pass the basket!
EWTN has now purchased this charismatic centered church !
Is anyone just Catholic anymore? Or does everyone need to belong to some church within a church Movement?
....and that is WHY Maciel went along doing his thing as long as he did ! Because his Movement brought in big finance.



Tancred said...

Pure speculation.

Unknown said...

Incoherent dribble. Thank God he does not possess the authority to give away what does not belong to him. It does not possess the quality to be called heretical - Truly the ramblings of an idiot.

Anonymous said...

Tancred, are you or other contributors of this blog part of Opus Dei?

Anonymous said...

I second this query.especially in light of your previous article in defense of the TLM Paraguayan Opus Dei Bishop who sheltered the pederast Urrutigoity.

"Tancred, are you or other contributors of this blog part of Opus Dei?"

Read The Pink Swastika and also Maria Carmen del Tapia's book on the alleged "saint", by his secretary for over two decades . I was surprised by the actions and traits she described concerning him, and how they aligned with the traits I have both witnessed and read attributed to the non effeminate type of sexually disordered male .

Your screen name does not do justice to the root qualities attributed to it.

Anonymous said...

Furthermore Tancred, I have read in the SSPX Angelus the defense of ArchBishop LeFebvre's Consecration as Bishop by the known masonic Rosecrucian Cardinal as having been performed by two Bishops to ensure it's validity .BUT truth be told, same Freemason Cardinal Ordained LeFebvre singularly to the priesthood .

"At the time of his death in the 1970s, the apparently unrepentant Liénart is reported to have boasted: “Humanly speaking, the Catholic Church is dead!”
Politics, secret societies and True Catholicism never should mix.Whether they are called Opus Dei or the Grand Orient Lodge.

Nicolas Bellord said...

Has anyone defined what they mean by "reconciled"? The problem is that the definition of the verb "reconcile" in the SOED has 12 different meanings divided into two sections. The first section starts with "To bring (a person) again into friendly relations after an estrangement." Well that just means being friendly with other Christians - no problem. Then it can mean "To bring back, restore, or readmit to the Church, spec. the Church of Rome". I would suggest that means not just being a friend of the Church but actually accepting the doctrines of the Church in their entirety. And that is where the second section of definitions comes in: "To adjust, settle, bring to agreement".

It seems to me that the Ordinariate is a good example of "reconciled diversity" - their liturgy etc is different but they agree on doctrine in full. Surely Pope Benedict meant that kind of thing rather than just being good friends who agree to differ. If Pope Francis and others define "reconciled" in a different manner then we have a problem. It is always vital to define our terms. Unfortunately many do not even agree to that and that is relativism.

Anonymous#2 said...

@Tancred What part was the speculation part?
@Anonymous There is only Catholic. Or something else, such as neo, conservative, New Breed, Novus Ordo, conciliar, etc. My family is Catholic. The same kind of Catholic that our grandparents were. There is NO OTHER KIND and I don't care what their baptism papers say.

Anonymous#2 said...

And...? The point is...?

Tancred said...


Tancred said...

Get lost.

Lynda said...

Clearly doesn't mean reconciled to the Deposit of Faith and the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. It appears to mean reconciled to indifferentism, relativism, compromise with the immoral political zeitgeist. Reconciled to rejection of right reason and the unchangeable teaching of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Reparation!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, there is an error in your statement that Archbishop Lefebvre was ordained singularly by Card. Leinart which must be refuted. Here are the details of one consecrator and the two co-consecrators as is usual practice: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blefebvre.html

Anonymous said...

Protestant Pentecostals are all servants of Satan.
They reject many of the primary teachings of the one true Roman Catholic Church.
For the leader of that church to then gratuitously confirm their anti catholic predjudices and pretend that some type of alleged unity exists with their church,s is deeply disturbing.