Friday, November 1, 2013

Father Barron's Hope of Universal Salvation is Wrong and Heretical

And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.  And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

Edit: There are some people out there who are already making false statements about Father Barron's disinformation and frankly modernist conception of Hell, which he doesn't actually believe is a physical place.

Hell is a place of terrible proportions and frequently mentioned in the Scriptures, and the history of the Church.  It's always described as very densely populated.  Catholics have always believed this way, but now there are those who are trying, against the evidence, to suggest otherwise.

Most people go to Hell.  It was widely considered that as it is written, "wide is the path of destruction",  that Hell was full of sinners.  It was and remains a real place of torment.  Yet as is usually the case with many among the apologetics mafia, that's not good enough, how our forefathers believed.  Yet as in all ages, there are many who want to believe false doctrines and follow false teachers.

Their ears are itching after novelties. Not a few people  want to oppose a modern view never held by Catholics, that Hell might be empty.  One of the poisons administered is to suggest that if Hell is so full, it would make us despair.   Clearly men are incapable of being a sign of contradiction, of accepting the hard sayings, and suffering and trusting God's word.

After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

 Dante populated Hell with friends and enemies alike in his Divine Comedy,  there were points it seemed  that the whole world was going to Hell, but this didn't stop Dante believing or hoping in his own salvation, or perhaps those close to him.  Most Catholics had no trouble believing these two, non-contradictory ideas about Hell, God's mercy and his justice.   Pope Benedict XVI. especially taught that  there is a place called Hell, again in contrast to those timely fashions:
Pope Benedict XVI stated: "Jesus came to tell us that he wants us all in heaven and that hell, of which so little is said in our time, exists and is eternal for those who close their hearts to his love. "[Holy See, website]
As to the idea that Hell might not have any human beings in it, which *is* a statement of universal salvation, a clearly heretical doctrine, Theologian Ludwig Ott writes:
God, by his eternal decree, has predestined certain persons, in anticipation of their [unrepented mortal] sins, to eternal reprobation [or punishment].[Cf Is Hell Empty?]
Meanwhile, on some parts of the internet, Voris legitimate exception to Father Barron's all-too-familiar heterodoxy remains unchallenged.

 Also, there is nothing in Spe Salvi which says that Hell may be empty.




“Often, when it is the king or some other monarch or potentate that he (the judge) has to deal with, he finds that there is no soundness in the soul whatever; he finds it scourged and scarred by the various acts of perjury and wrong-doing ...; it is twisted and warped by lies and vanity, and nothing is straight because truth has had no part in its development. Power, luxury, pride, and debauchery have left it so full of disproportion and ugliness that when he has inspected it (he) sends it straight to prison, where on its arrival it will undergo the appropriate punishment ... Sometimes, though, the eye of the judge lights on a different soul which has lived in purity and truth ... then he is struck with admiration and sends him to the isles of the blessed” [Cf. Spe Salvi, Gorgias 525a-526c.]

Image of Hieronymous Bosch from Indianapolis Institute of Art.

AMGD

42 comments:

Geremia said...

Scripture tells us hell has damned souls in it.

Aged parent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

The false Doctrine of God's Unconditional Love spreading far and wide.
Father Barren undiscerns destruction

Aged parent said...

Father Barron is just another disciple of theological lightweights like Urs von Baltasar and de Lubac. Neither of those two really believed in Hell, or if they did they thought nobody went there.

As for Father Barron himself, for those who like me question his doctrinal soundness it should suffice to know that he was showered with money to make his historically dubious "Catholicism" TV series. Money like that just doesn't flow into truly Catholic media projects, but dicey Catholic media projects never seem to have trouble finding backers..

anon said...

They call Jesus a liar.

ps. I don't think de Lubac or von Baltasar disbelieve in Hell anymore.

anon said...

They also call His holy Mother a liar. She showed Hell to the Fatima saints and said that "You have seen Hell where the souls of poor sinners go who have no one to pray for them." (paraphrased from my memory)

anon said...

Be one of the small number who find the way to life, and enter by the narrow gate into Heaven. Take care not to follow the majority and the common herd, so many of whom are lost. Do not be deceived; there are only two roads: one that leads to life and is narrow; the other that leads to death and is wide. There is no middle way. St. Louis Marie de Montfort

I had the greatest sorrow for the many souls that condemned themselves to Hell, especially those Lutherans. [...] I saw souls falling into hell like snowflakes. St. Teresa of Avila

The Lord called the world a “field” and all the faithful who draw near to him “wheat.” All through the field, and around the threshing-floor, there is both wheat and chaff. But the greater part is chaff; the lesser part is wheat, for which is prepared a barn not a fire. [...] The good also are many, but in comparison with the wicked the good are few. Many are the grains of wheat, but compared with the chaff, the grains are few. St. Augustine
The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire. Pope St. Gregory the Great
How many souls turn away from the road to glory, and go to hell! St. Francis Xavier

There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led into the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today’s Feast-Day: we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how few they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the Elect? Pope St. Gregory the Great

The greater number of men still say to God: Lord we will not serve Thee; we would rather be slaves of the devil, and condemned to Hell, than be Thy servants. Alas! The greatest number, my Jesus – we may say nearly all – not only do not love Thee, but offend Thee and despise Thee. How many countries there are in which there are scarcely any Catholics, and all the rest either infidels or heretics! And all of them are certainly on the way to being lost. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever. According to statistics, approximately 80,000 persons die every day. How many of these will die in mortal sin, and how many will be condemned! For, as their lives have been, so also will be their end. St. Anthony Mary Claret

Ah! A great many persons live constantly in the state of damnation! St. Vincent de Paul

Sebastian said...

Neither Fr. Barron or Sr. Lucia or St.Vincent de Paul can know how many are saved. Jesus himself refused to answer the question. It is - probably for a good reason - not part of the truths revealed to mankind. If we know how many end in hell, we might despair. If we were to know all are saved - that would lead to moral indifference. We must fear most people go to hell, and we may hope none do. As our Lady will have us pray - after showing the seers of Fatima the innards of hell: 'O Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy.' Why would the Virgin ask us to pray for an empty hell if it is completely impossible?

Anonymous said...

Declaring that "most people go to Hell" is unbelievably arrogant and goes against Christ's mandate not to judge. It's just as bad if not worse than someone saying that Hell may be empty. Only God knows whether most people go to Hell, not you, Mr. judgemtal "Eponymous Flower."

Tancred said...

Lol, not my words, but the Fathers and Saints.

John Beutler said...

We are not to judge or condemn any person but we should judge things, as well as moral or immoral acts. Jesus said: "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right." -Lk 12:56-57

Unknown said...

Father Baron openly endorses the book "The Shack" which is dangerous book that portrays the Trinity in a heretical manner and promotes universal salvation. I have heard him on the radio trying to dismiss concerns about the mandate and called it "that mandate thing". Listen closely to what he really says and stay close to Jesus, not what is popular.

Unknown said...

I agree that we must fear for the worst and hope for the best. However, it seems unreasonable, given the data of revelation and the wisdom of the fathers and saints, to hope that all will be saved. Surely many go to hell. I think the best we could hope for is that a majority (like the two thirds of the angelic host) will be saved. Still, I'm haunted by the fact that the opposite of love is not hate, but rather indifference. In the face of so many opportunities to know and seek God (who by definition must be all good and all lovely), does it not appear that a very great number, even the majority of our fellows are indifferent?

Anonymous said...

Okay. Why do we resort to this flimflam. Voris is more learned than I am. I do not have an STB. However, he uses John's Apocalypse as if that proves anyone is in hell. He specifically and graphically puts up SOME of Revelation 20 BUT NOT ALL. Why does Voris edit the verse? I have looked at Douay-Rheims, NAB, NSRV, they all are much the same but Voris does not use the unedited verses. He specifically leaves out verses 13 and 14 from Douay-Rheims. I'm not saying no one is in hell, but Fr. Barron has the hope that no one is in hell. Voris says himself that persons will exclude themselves from Heaven and Fr. Barron has said the same thing. Why are we so intent on proving that some go to hell? It begs the question of which is greater, God's mercy or His justice? The bottom line is that Jesus tells us not to judge. Matthew 7 sums it up for me. I believe in Holy Mother Church and do my best to follow her because I believe she leads me to Christ. However, I wish to focus on saving my soul, and doing my best to save those around me too much to worry about who is in hell.

Tancred said...

I think we resort to the "flimflam" because it's what the Church has always taught and what actual Catholics anyways, have always believed.

Barron specifically states that we can hope no one is in Hell. That's clearly false.

If all Barron said was that people condemn themselves, it would be acceptable, and anyway, that has no bearing on how many are in Hell.

The Bedards said...

Dear Fr. Barron, I believe that you are an obedient Priest. Don't dig in you heals! Just reflect on you statement and clear this whole mess up! Peace Be With You, John

Anonymous said...

Ah, as is so often the case, Mr. "anonymous" does not like nor can handle the truth. Similarly, his/her understanding of "judge" is, as is common, misinterpreted and incorrect. I shall pray for him/her all the more.

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for priests. said...

NOBODY who humbly meditates on Who God is and why and how He became Victim in order to repair the friendship between God and mankind that was destroyed in the Garden of Eden can possibly think that there is not a Hell and the need for personal penance.

nbtrap said...

The following proposition is condemned in Blessed Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors:

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

nbtrap said...

This would seem to be a knock-down argument against Barron and neo-Catholics.

Irenaeus of New York said...

I bought the "Catholicism" series when that came out. What a complete waste of money that was. Fr. Barron lauds Merton as a "Spiritual Master" and dedicates time to this scoundrel who abandoned his child and duties as a father to be a pretend monk in the USA. I am wary of people who have such disturbing heroes.

Anonymous said...

It would be a knock-down argument if it weren't for the phrase "at all in the true Church of Christ." There are plenty of Catholics today who think everyone is "in" the Church in some mysterious way. Thus everyone escapes this condemnation.

I'm not saying this reading is correct, since it explains away the condemned proposition utterly, reducing it to vanity and toothless posturing, but this defense will be made.

Lynda said...

It seems to me that some priests and bishops who at least appeared to be orthodox in the past, have been somewhat corrupted, after having got an audience and having become well-known to the public. Is it pride as a result of widespread praise or recognition that has caused a block to their judgment and holiness?

Irenaeus of New York said...

St. Peter in his epistle says Judas is there, if I am not mistaken.

David L. Gray, M.A.T. said...

There are some PERSONAL meanderings and speculations and ponderings that theologians should just keep to themselves or, otherwise, utterly fail those who hear them. Point Blank! It is not the job of the faithful Catholic theologian to lead people away via their uncircumcised hopes or wonder.

Irenaeus of New York said...

Not the epistle but Acts....

Acts 1:25 - "To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place."

Michael F Poulin said...

Matthew 7:13-14 " Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those that find it are few."

Anyone care to take on the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Jesus says many are lost, those that find life are few. How much clearer can He be? Those who twist the Scriptures will be in the express lane to Hell I'm afraid.

Jesus never said "don't be judgmental"; a common mis-reading of Scripture:

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that you be not judged, For the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Jesus is talking about one's credibility and standards of judgment here. He is warning us that we will be judged by the same standard that we use to judge. He never says don't judge, just be careful and your probably better off not doing so, but he does not forbid it here. That is an idea liberals graft on the Scripture to try to make it say what it does not say. The whole purpose of the paragraph is to avoid hypocrisy when correcting a sinner.

Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Jesus warns us against hypocrisy in judging, taking care to remove the very same sin from our own lives which will blind us, take care of your own sin first and then you will see clearly to correct your sinful brother. To correct your sinful brother and put him back on the right path is most charitable. Silence is deadly and shows you don't really care about him.

If I am a fall down drunk, I can't tell others to quit drinking now can I? But the very same advise will become more credible if I am a recovered drunk.

Deacon Augustine said...

Jude 7 "As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner having given themselves over to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE."

If Sacred Scripture tells us that there are already those who are suffering the punishment of eternal fire, i.e. in hell, how can any Catholic priest claim that we can hope it is empty? Do they know better than the mere Word of God? Do they know better than Our Lord who said only few would find the hard and narrow path to salvation and remain upon it? Do they know better than all the saints and Fathers who have taught that the souls in hell are legion, or the exorcists who battle the demons of hell in our own day?

The arrogance of these men who set themselves up as false prophets is astounding and is only slightly less incredible than the vast numbers of souls who fall for their ear-tickling lies. Wittingly or unwittingly, the only person they serve by their false doctrine is the devil himself. They sell their souls for money, fame and popularity, but they will discover the reality of hell for themselves if all the souls they lead astray are held against them.

Anonymous said...

Just been reading on the mystic and stigmatist Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich, who apparently asked the Lord why can't everybody be saved? And the Lord answered, if everyone eventually goes to Heaven, no one will need to believe there is a God.

simpleguy said...

It seems to me that Fr Barron may be unpersuasive, but he is not heretical. Nowhere does the Church state that there are persons in hell. Just because you find a certain line of theological speculation to be unhelpful or even harmful does not make it heresy.

De Liliis said...

102 Quotations from Scripture and the Saints on Hell.

What more would anyone faithful need?

nbtrap said...

Yes, as you say, they could get around it by denying that there aren't people "who are not at all in the true Church of Christ." Of course, by robbing that phrase of any objective reference, they render the proposition effectively meaningless, which makes one wonder why it needed to be condemned in the first place.

Tancred said...

You can go with the scriptures, the Fathers, the Saints or not. No one's forcing you to be a Catholic, after all, in fact, it seems there are many, including those claiming to be Catholic who'd prefer we weren't.

Anonymous said...

Also don't forget "pro multis." If Christ's blood redeemed all but was poured out only "pro multis", that implies that some refuse his mercy and are not saved.

Unknown said...

Good response! The don't judge quote is used by 'gay christians' most frequently! FROM THE 'DEFEAT MODERNISM' WEBPAGE & FACEBOOK PAGE: It posts the Pope St. Pius X ipso facto excommunication of all modernists. It posts the heresy of 'Francis' that unbelieving, unrepentant atheists are heaven bound. It posts the 'Francis' quote: "I believe in God, not in a Catholic God. There is no Catholic God." QUESTION: What must this man do to convince you he is NOT the Vicar on earth of Our Blessed Lord's Church? All who profess traditional Catholicism betray the martyrs, and Our Lord Himself by recognizing this layman - the first man to be 'ordained' under the new false rite of the new 'Novus Ordo' New World Order Church - the 6th no less of the end of times apostates! A WARNING TO ALL TRADITIONALISTS: Eternity is a very long time. You yoke yourself to a heretical church and step off the narrow path to salvation! This IS the teaching of the Most Holy Catholic Church. The heretical Mr. Voris states it has never been the mandate of Our Lord's Church to speak of people in Hell. REALLY? The Church teaching IS the teaching of scripture! And scripture is quite clear: FEW ARE SAVED! That is Our Lord's teaching AND that of His Church! Mr. Voris is ( currently ) facing the Final Judgement, and Our Lord WILL tell him to 'be gone, I do not know you!" So is the case for ALL who stray from the narrow path! INCLUDING those 'traditionalists' who want to set up their popeless sedevacantist churches in defiant opposition to the warnings of Our Lord's Vicars on earth regarding this final Apostasy! The fewness of the saved as stated by Our Lord Jesus Christ mean few, FEW will heed this warning and only a very small remnant will remain true to Him! Will He find ANY faith on earth, indeed! May God have mercy on you all, that your hearts have not grown so lukewarm that the Light may not enter in. To Eponymous Flower: Your site makes a valid attempt to speak out against the end times apostate 'new order' church, but you remain yoked to it, thus you too are sadly straying off the narrow path. I recommend you not suppress the Truth, lest you heap judgement upon yourself ( that would be judgement by the Divine Judge Himself - I judge nobody, I am simply a defender of the Holy Catholic Faith. ) My testimony to Our Risen Lord & Saviour and the Final Judgement can be found on twitter @QuietChurchMice God Bless.

Stoic Person said...

Anyone would want to place the "everyone goes to Heaven" card at the bottom of the deck at a time of graft, corruption, and disregard - for it is an invitation to "extracurricular sporting"

Tancred said...

Yes, my master.

Unknown said...

You have no idea, Tancred, you cannot fathom the spiritual battle and the loss of souls. Clearly, your brief response indicates you don't take the message too seriously. You profess the 'catholic' faith, yet you thumb your nose at the warnings of the ( real ) popes regarding what was to come. It unfolds now exactly as Our Blessed Lord said it would. It breaks my heart that so many souls have fallen into an abyss of darkness that most will not find their way out. Their hearts grew lukewarm, so He sent them a great deception for they loved not the Light of Truth and refused to flee from the darkness. A question, Tancred: considering ( seriously ) what Our Lord said about the end of times prior to His return, are millions of people entering the narrow gate simply because they are baptized and profess the catholic faith? That is the ticket through the gate is it? Or is it perhaps the reality: they honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far away. You are playing a game of Russian roulette with your very soul. Mr. Voris boasts about flying 'round the world, and in a most diabolical way, deceives those who long for traditional Catholicism and are still searching for the truth in confusing times. He is very crafty in his promotion of a man who does not believe in the Catholic God, and he will be judged according to his works, I can assure you. You have a countdown for a 'cardinal' on this blog. If he were a holy man of God, a true cardinal, this would not be necessary, yes? I can also assure you that God is not the author of confusion! "Trads" argue this and that point regarding these times that confuse so many, but it is VERY CLEAR to those who love the Truth and seek it wholeheartedly, those who truly 'get' the idea of losing your life to this world in order to gain it, to really love God with all your heart and soul and mind. ONLY THEN can a soul see the final great deception and flee, as scripture, as God Himself instructs us to do! Another example for you: another online 'rock star' ( rock stars do not enter the narrow gate assuredly ) a @fatherz promoted 'communion' received in mortal sin no less in his blog! One who truly believes in the Divine Real Presence would have none of that. Such a soul faithful to Christ would give the obvious advice: go to confession first, then receive communion next Sunday. It is unbelievers such as @fatherz who will face the Final Judgement, and how much more they will be judged according to their works for such offence! Claiming the true faith outwardly no less, so much more culpable than the one who simply does not believe. THIS and MANY OTHER desolating sacrileges, is why the most merciful end of times desolation of the Real Presence HAS occurred! Sadly, so sadly, you are going to find this out too late, when you must kneel before Our Lord on that fateful day. Our most merciful Lord & Saviour provided an experience of that day to me personally, and I most urgently now try to impart the reality of the Final Judgement to as many as I can. May Our Lord have mercy on you, truly, that the Light may illuminate your soul and thus save you. I hope we both work out our salvation and so meet one day, and together with all the Saints, Praise Him for ever and ever.

Unknown said...

It is very usual for Catholic speakers to clarify weather or not the Church has declared an official teaching on something. Many times it's like a side comment, like what you would say after "in any case". So here it would be something like "in any case the Catholic Church hasn't declared..."

It is wise for an official to clarify when he's not talking in the name of the Church.

Fr. Barron is only saying as a side comment that the Church in any case hasn't declared an official teaching on this.
How an official teaching comes about is a whole other issue, but there is never the presumption that the tail wags the dog.

Having read and listened to Fr. Barron quite a bit, I know for a fact that that is not what he is saying.
As for the rest of what Fr. Barron is saying, let's really pay attention to what he says and really understand it. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4
And here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4

Tancred said...

The Church's silence isn't an opportunity to abolish Hell.

Unknown said...

Romans 5:19 says the many who were made sinners in Adam will be made righteous in Christ. That many is ALL people

1 Corinthians 15:22 says as in Adam all men die so in Christ all men will be vivified

Tancred said...

Is that the boomer bible?