(Rome) Pope Francis received a delegation on Thursday of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany at the Vatican. In his address to the Lutherans, the Catholic Church leader said some astonishing things. Catholics and Lutherans should "remember together" the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Celebrate the schism as a common event? An idiosyncratic form of "historicization" of the Reformation?
What the Pope said: "Ecumenical dialogue can not now be separated from reality and the life of our churches. In 2017, Lutheran and Catholic Christians commemorate together the five hundredth anniversary of the Reformation. On this occasion, Lutherans and Catholics will, for the first time, have the opportunity to keep one and the same global ecumenical commemoration, not in the form of a triumphalist celebration, but rather to confess our common faith in the Triune God. "
This is a shared "Reformation Memorial" reported Miguel Angel Yáñez, as the chief editor of Adelante la fe considers: "I really wonder: Are we seriously commemorating as Catholics of the unfortunate schism that enticed by the millions of souls to the fall away from the Catholic faith"
Lutherans and Lefebvrians?
And Yáñez continued, "If this ecumenical discourse is coherent, then we would soon get to hear the following statement from Rome:
, Ecumenical dialogue can not be separated from the reality and the life of our church today. In 2018 we commemorate together with Catholics associated to Archbishop Lefebvre the 30th anniversary of the consecration of bishops who have separated from us. On this occasion, the two sides will, for the first time, have the opportunity to keep the world one and the same ecumenical commemoration, not in the form of a triumphalist celebration, but to confess our common faith in the Triune God,'" says Miguel Angel Yáñez.
Pope Francis continued to the German Lutherans. "Let us invite all, with God's help and with the support of his spirit to make further steps towards unity and not just to limit ourselves to what we have already achieved with this Reformation Memorial"
The German Bishops' Conference is actively pursuing the "common" Memory of the Church's schism by Martin Luther. For this purpose, a separate "project office of the Reformation Memorial" was set up.
2017: 100th Anniversary of Fatima
The 2017 does not mean 500 years of Church division but really, 100 years since the apparitions of Fatima. For the latter, Pope Francis has not taken to commemorate it so far. In Portugal they have been trying to descure a Pope visit since 2013 for the Pope's visit on the occasion of the 100th anniversary celebrations in Fatima. Last April, the retired Portuguese Cardinal José Saraiva Martins said there is no secure commitment, but it was "normal and natural" that the Pope would come to a "so momentous occasion" to Fatima.
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
Trans: Tancred firstname.lastname@example.org
What next heaven forbid:
luther to be canonised at the above 'commemoration"?
Immaculate heart of Mary, pray for us ,
We really really need your help mother
on the vatican website, the relevant document is titled, wait for it:
"FROM CONFLICT TO COMMUNION"
are we in or moving towards communion with the lutherans?
is this a joke?
this is yet another sign of the end times and the period of confusion that we are in,
as foretold by st paul in 2 thes 2, and by our catechism, in paragraph 675,
the fact that the 500th anniversary of the horrible sin of schism and division in the One True Church,
which led to so much suffering and so many martyrs and blood spilt,
is actually being a cause of Catholic celebration,
this false ecumenism giving the false appearance of equality to the One True Church,
and indeed it would seem to be giving a blessing to the heretical lutheran church.
in comparison, it is clear that the 100th anniversary of Fatima,
with its yet unfulfilled prophecies, is not being promoted at all by francis.
has anyone heard anything from francis, who loves an off-the-cuff chat, regarding the 100 years of fatima,
or has there been anything on the vatican website regarding this?
Unlike the above hyperlink to the celbration of lutheranism,
i could not find anything on the vatican website regarding fatima's 100th anniverary.
why is francis, the prophet of the god of surprises (whoever that may be),
not celebrating this years the 500th anniversary of St Terese of Avila,
the great Carmelite mystic and doctor of the church.
when we see events like this,
in comparision to how the FFI have been destroyed,
basically for daring to be Catholic,
and when we see how Cardinal Burke has been treated,
it really does seem that all are welcome in the church of nice,
except tradition-minded practicing catholics.
what's next? no doubt that at the next synod, or even before,
we will be told that 2+2 must be equal to 5,
because we cant let doctrine get in the way of pastoral practice.
I don't know what to think - either Pope Francis is a skillful politician (he's being polite about all this 500 years commemoration and the visit of the Lutherans ) or he's a good hearted man who is a bit naïve. The trouble is that people will take his willingness to get Catholics to join in the 'commemoration' as agreeing that Protestantism holds the truth - so the Real Presence in the Eucharist , devotion to our Blessed Mother , our reliance on the intercession of the Saints in Heaven is a lot of foolish error , is it ? Catholics are muddled enough in what the Church teaches. We need to pray earnestly - I'll remember this in my rosary!
Would a little honesty be in order? I take it nobody thinks that the Catholic Church has always been perfect in every way throughout its 2,000 year history? That there has never been anything in it that needed reforming? The Reformation had no doubt many different causes, some of them not very creditable, but I would imagine most would probably say that it pointed to aspects of the Catholic Church where reform was needed - and in that sense Catholics can celebrate it with others. Schism in the Church is always a scandal, but schism cannot be repaired if we are not honest about its causes.
Wonder if the pope was Benedict, what media would have told....the lutheran protest was right in many points, catholic church was wrong in many points, Reform and counter reform caused mln.of dead people, a 30 years war that destroyed Europe and generate a hate still present in our days, so I don't think is a good idea to celebrate the anniversary of a tragedy that split up the Bride of Christ, anyway 2017 is the centennial of Fatima too, estote parati and let's pray for our souls. God bless+
This is scandulous! It should be a commiseration, not a celebration! The Protestants will feel quite smug at this. I work with them and I have seen their awful propaganda videos teaching children about the Reformation. I love these people who love Our Lord deeply, but not the Reformation
Are you serious? Are we to celebrate the quarter million people who died in the bloodbath that luther precipitated? His words also were that he wanted to wash his hands with the blood of bishops. Look it up. He was NOT a reformer but a revolutionary. Are we to celebrate countless souls not having the sacraments? Our Lutheran churches here support sodomy and abortion and is that okay now too?
Where is our Church? Where? I know it has been off the rails for decades but now the train has fallen into the chasm. The few prelates (or Institutes like the FFI) that hold on to all the truths and even traditions of our precious faith are persecuted, exiled, smashed, ridiculed, and so forth.....which truly shows that they are in the right. No servant is above the Master and if they persecuted and killed Our Lord, His true followers can expect the same. Is the present pope a follower of Christ?
Why is he so eager to join and legitimize something which is clearly dying out all over Europe?
What is being commemorated here? 500 years of heretical teachings? The persecution and death of Recusant families? The hanging of countless priests? The stealing of the monasteries? The crippling fines imposed on those who refused to embrace the false teachings of Protestants? Topcliffe's interrogation methods?
Or is the aim to try to pretend we're "all boys together" with very few differences separating us?
If The Pope is suggesting a sober reflection on the evils of Heresy, then we should be all for this commemoration. Somehow I doubt that he has this in mind. I wonder how Sts Thomas More & John Fisher are viewing this prospect from their seats in Heaven?
Holy saint-martyrs of England and Wales Orate pro nobis.
There is a damn sight more wrong with the Church right now than there was at the Deformation, but that can never justify heresy and schism.
I'm more interested in what the Protestant Revolt reformed in the Church.
I hope Our Lady of Fatima crashes their little party. Remember the 100 year Anniversary of the refusal by the Kings of France to the invitation to Consecrate that country to The Sacred Heart of Jesus? Not pretty! The Popes since 1929 have similarly not cooperated with Heaven's wishes. God help us all.
You will have to read some history then, but if you do read it with an open mind and without preconceptions - a big ask, I know.
"Does anyone think the Catholic Church has been perfect throughout her 2000 year history?"....... YES.
The Church has indeed been perfect as is Her founder. And She will continue to be perfect til the end of time.
It has and always will be the human component that lets Her and Her founder down.
The One Holy Catholic and apostolic Church will always be perfect.... The Apostate catholic church?.... well that another matter altogether....
Is the church going to commemorate Marx and Lenin, too? How about Oliver Cromwell or Hitler and Stalin? The point here is that, but for reformation none of these individuals would be more than asterisks in the book of history. But for reformation, we would have real universities, we would have markets, we would have banks (the earliest modern bank can be traced to Italy), and we would have a middle class since there was a middle class during those "horrid" Middle Ages. There was no middle class in Marxist-Leninist Russia, in case anyone needed reminding. Everyone was worse than a slave in the 20th century Marxist world. How enlightening!
What needs to be commemorated is the 500 years of heresy from the Faith, and atonement done for the lack of effort in fulfilling the duty to bring the heretics to the One, True, Faith. We also ought to be remembering and honouring all the martyrs for the Faith, murdered because of those heresies. Blessed Michael, defend us in battle . . .
@Savanarola, you'll have to do better than that. I've read history, but I'm not confident you have.
Yes we ought to do it, the martyrs of Gorcum, Munster, Magonz, the Flanders, the bloodshed of the glorious Henry fool the 8th, even the martyrs whose names are unknown, the Vandean martyrs beheaded because refused to spit on the cross, the gulag, Auschwitz and many, many others that history blew away, but if some cardinals say there's no hell, where can be the augustinian monk from Eisleben now?
It depends on what history you have read, you are only guessing what I might have read. History tends to be written by the winners, so the history I was taught in this country was pretty anti-Catholic over the Reformation. I hope it is more balanced now, but that should not mean going to the opposite extreme and saying that the Catholic Church had all truth and goodness exclusively on its side.
My namesake was cruelly tortured and burned at the stake for supposed heresy, so were countless others in the late Middle Ages. Is the Church today as bad as that, Deacon Augustine?
To Mr. Kiernan may I say that in this world there cannot be a Church without its human component, so it will always be flawed, as we know only too well. Only God is perfect.
Savoranola: seems that your namesake died in vain. Since you are so versed in history, you must have read about the Council of Trent, that defined in very clear terms the tenets of past and modern Catholicism. There you can find the condemnation of the Protestant Reformation heresies. So nothing to celebrate or commemorate, buddy.
My parish priest already does. He even praises Darwin.
It should be commemorated in sackcloth and ashes.
" Only God is Perfect"..... And so is his bride.
could one imagine jews, not just commemorating the holocast with nazis, but also hosting said commemoration?
this situation is just as ridiculous and scandalous.
The Vatican says that the big event of 2017 is not going to be a celebration, but a commemoration.
That isn't much better - it does not change the fact that Catholics *cannot* take part in common worship with those who adhere to an heretical sect, which is what Lutheranism is. Such a commemoration requires Catholics to act in accordance with a Protestant conception of the Church - it requires us to deny what the Church teaches about herself. To deny that teaching is out of the question - a Catholic cannot do it.
This is *very* bad:
"9. The historical remembrance has had material consequences for the relationship of the confessions to each other. For this reason, a common ecumenical remembrance of the Lutheran Reformation is both so important and at the same time so difficult. Even today, many Catholics associate the word “Reformation” first of all with the division of the church, while many Lutheran Christians associate the word “Reformation” chiefly with the rediscovery of the gospel, certainty of faith and freedom. It will be necessary to take both points of departure seriously in order to relate the two perspectives to each other and bring them into dialogue."
## Translation: the only "perspective" we are going to take seriously is the Lutheran - the CC can get stuffed.
"12. Ecumenism, however, cannot base itself on forgetfulness of tradition."
## Translation: "Ecumenism couldn't give a monkey's for tradition."
This is really bad:
"29. Implicit rapprochement with Luther’s concerns has led to a new evaluation of his catholicity, which took place in the context of recognizing that his intention was to reform, not to divide, the church. This is evident in the statements of Johannes Cardinal Willebrands and Pope John Paul II.(7) The rediscovery of these two central characteristics of his person and theology led to a new ecumenical understanding of Luther as a “witness to the gospel.”"
## The demons could be called "witness[es] to the Gospel" - they were on the receiving end when Christ expelled them. Luther is a witness to the Gospel just as Mohammed, Joseph Smith, & other fore-runners of Antichrist were - IOW, not really.
This document: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html#The_first_ecumenical_commemoration_
cannot disguise the fact that the commemoration is an insult to the Church & a denial that the CC is the One Ark of salvation. If the CC is not the One True Church, then Christ has allowed His Church to deceive millions. "If we are deceived, Thou hast deceived us". The document ignores the fact that being religiously earnest, thoughtful & serious, make one neither Catholic nor even Christian. What cannot be ignored, despite the document's Titanic efforts to do so, is that (1) Luther left the Church (2) turned against her (3) taught heresy (4) vilified the Papacy (5) founded a schism (6) hated the Papacy (7) made great efforts to spread his doctrine.
I don't care how "religious" he was - he was a determined & vocal enemy of Catholicism, & it is an abuse of language to call him a "reformer", even though one does: St Philip Neri, St Teresa of Avila, St Ignatius Loyola, Cardinal Ximenes, St Cajetan of Thiene, these were reformers. Luther ratified the bigamy of Philip of Hesse - so much for the authority of the Bible. Reformers do not sanction bigamy. His last written work, in 1545, was an obscene tirade against "The Papacy Founded by the Devil".
Uh uh uh Pope Francis, heaven may interrupt your plans to validate heretics. There's that 100th anniversary of that little event in Portugal you and your cohorts like to pretend didn't happen also having a anniversary that year.
Exactly, a lot of anniversaries coming up that year, how about the 100th year of the Russian revolution or the Grand Lodge of England 300th anniversary. Watch out Pope Francis, you wouldn't want a nasty ole' comet to come mess up the year by validating heretics
Jorge celebrates the protestant reformation but I'm going to hell because I believe in the Holy Roman Catholic Faith pre-1958?
Anon @ 7:29 you are in the wrong decade, you need to set your clock back for 48 or 49, not 58. Bugnini's changes to Holy Week had already begun in 1958. Even the TLM we have today is the least that was acceptable to Archbishop LeFebvre. There is so much more we were robbed of by John XXIII and Pius XII who got Bugnini started in the first place. That btw is a BLACK STAIN on Pius XII's legacy.
Bro our mass uses the pre-1950 missal.Secondly,we celebrate holy week pre-1950! I agree with you however burning all documents & changes pre-1958 in St.Peter's Square would be a good start.
Post 1958* (typo)
If he celebrates the novas ordo & was ordained after 1969 he isn't a valid priest.
I rejoice at this!
Perhaps at any prayer services, or joint celebrations of Liturgy of the Hours, the Gospel of the Prodigal Son can be read?
(Just so we acknowledge who is the Father, and who the returning and penitent deliquent....)
Save the Liturgy, Save the World!
The Vatican II popes believe in faith alone. And they signed a concord agreement with the Lutherans saying "we all believe in faith alone now" back in 1999. It was a kind of big deal. How did you miss it?
At least that's how the media billed it...
Its called "JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church"....and actually reading the text (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html) it clearly says:
"27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it....."
only on the last day will the bride of The Christ be perfect. until then not so much.
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