Thursday, June 11, 2015

What Has Rome Decided About Medjuogorje? Commission Member Names a Third Way

(Rome) Ecclesiastical provisions provide  in  events connected with apparitions whether they are "supernatural" (supra naturaliter), or  they are "not supernatural" (non supra naturaliter). Will there be a third way for Medjugorje?
Pope Francis named the 17-member International Commission of Inquiry Medjugorje on the return flight from Sarajevo, which will replace one established in 2010 by Pope Benedict XVI to investigate the phenomenon of alleged Marian apparitions in the Herzegovinian mountain village. The Commission was led by  Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the longtime chairman of the Italian Bishops' Conference (1991-2007) and close friend of Pope John Paul II. As  the Cardinal reported  Pope Francis gave the Commission's final report, referred to it several times on the plane to journalists as "significant work." Ruini blurted spontaneously: "Any way. That makes me happy. "

Preferably Rome a Gentle Solution?


Father Perrella, Mariologist and member of Medjugorje Commission of Inquiry
A statement that is obviously meant for the long duration of the decision. The Commission had concluded its work shortly before the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI. Since then, the final report is in Rome. The Argentine pontiff seems in no hurry. In Rome the main concern applies to the part of the faithful who are so convinced of the authenticity of Medjugorje that a negative judgment of the Church could shake or alienate even them from the Church and the faith.
For this reason they are  looking for "gentle" solution, which will satisfy  opponents, such as the bishop of Mostar, and proponents, such as the Archbishop of Vienna,  without them losing face, maintains the validity of the negative decision by the Yugoslav Bishops' Conference 1991 and guides the faithful. In the Church that sometimes means not to decide and "ride out" a question.

Interview with the Mariologist and Commissioner Salvatore Maria Perrella

On Tuesday, another member of the Commission of Inquiry, Father Salvatore Perrella Maria took a public position. The Servite is Rector of the Pontifical Theological Faculty of the Marianum in Rome and teaches Dogmatic Theology and Mariology.
"We have worked thoroughly and seriously," said Father Perrella, quoted for the daily newspaper Avvenire. The judgment of Rome will reflect the fact and point out that "appearances are always possible", and if they are recognized as genuine, "represent a gift from God," said the Mariologist.
"However, the Church has the duty to preserve the primacy of revelation, by understanding these special events only as supports of the gospel of Christ," said Father Perrella. "The Virgin Mary is radiant, but still a creature of God that never overshadows the encounter with Christ, but always encourages. Apply the words of Mary in the Gospel of John: do what he tells you to do.' As John Paul II taught,  the phenomena include the  maternal mediating role of Mary. "

Lifestyle of the "Seers" Important - Messages on "Doctrinal Ambiguities" Examined

The Mariologist pointed to the importance of the right way of life of the seer. "If they are real, they do not seek the visions. Rather, it is God who leads. It is also necessary that they keep a contemporary life in the Gospel; in addition, they may not seek the limelight."
The judgment of the Medjugorje phenomenon was carried out by the commission of inquiry, said Father Perrella, after the last of the criteria supplemented by  Pope Paul VI. There are "positive criteria": "Even the place of events has its importance, because it must have rich and lasting spiritual fruit. That is, looking for evidence of conversions, testimonies of charity and vocations."
But there were also "negative criteria" said the Mariologist: "There are clearly errors   associated with the event, such as lies or storytelling. In addition, any doctrinal ambiguities are analyzed in the messages or profit, i.e., whether,  the 'seer' or 'other' beneficiaries speculate with the events. Science also provides its contribution. For example, by determination of psychological diseases."

A third decision option?


Panorama article from August 2013
Due to its confidentiality, the Mariologist did not say what conclusion the commission of inquiry had come to. About this  he said amazing things about the judgment. Avvenire emphasized his words in bold type. Has the Servite thus anticipated the decision of the Vatican?
"You can say that  moral certainty exists with a supernatural character. Or that it is the result of fraud and therefore does not come from God. There is a third possibility, which is not included in the provisions of the Holy See, but it has been considered by the theologians: The Commission chooses neither a yes nor a no, but notes that at present there is not an obviously blatantly supernatural phenomenon."
Father Perrella referred to the non-decision as a "third way". As a member of the commission of inquiry it must be assumed that he has thus   not merely posed theoretical speculations.

Recognize as a place of worship, Report Directly to Rome and Not Definitely Confirm Phenomena

On August 14, 2013 Ignazio Ingrao published in the weekly magazine Panorama article: "Will Pope Francis Stop Medjugorje?" That was a month before the new pontiff took a position for the first time unofficially on Medjugorje. Ingrao wrote:
"After the disclaimer on Medjugorje that, during the pontificate of Benedict XVI were put forward [...] now many hope that Bergoglio's Marian devotion will cause him to officially recognize the apparitions.

According to the first indiscretions, surrounding the the visions, it seems on the contrary, that the solution to propose to the Pope, the Commission is recognize Medjugorje as a simple place of worship, but insinuate direct control of the Holy See.  This without definitely commenting on the phenomena. "
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
Image: Medjugorje.pro/Secretum meum mihi (screenshots)
Trans: Tancred vekron99@hotmail.com
AMDG

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

Gee, think of all that nice money that someone would stand to lose. Can't have that now, can we?

Unknown said...

Something is amiss when the seers are living a life of luxury, materialism, profiting by the hordes of funds flowing in, owning many homes, cars, etc.. and won't abide by the authority of the local Bishop (aka "disobedience") unlike the authentic apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima, and Guadalupe where the seers lived simple lives and took vows of poverty.

Anonymous said...

I spent a week at the home of one of the visionaries in Medjugorje. you have no idea how they live do not be so judgmental, most priests live more comfortably than they do. Medjugorje is a holy place of grace.

Barnum said...

Nice comment, Gaybriel. I don't know what Fr. Zuhlsdorf has to do with this, but I'll agree with E. M. Jones and his book on Medjugorje, the reticence of Benedict, and the opposition of local bishops. Your distaste for Medjugorje looks based in your doubt of miracles. Humor me and tell me you belief in the Fatima apparitions and miracle of the sun.

Unknown said...

I have spent many weeks over the last fourteen years traveling with Ivan. He is an inspiration; a man committed to Our Lady's Motherly work. To the detractors and slanderers, please do not make premature judgement on the alleged visionaries. In effect you are putting yourself up as 'more Catholic than the Pope'. Peace and Blessings, Fr Andrew Grace, New South Wales, Australia.

susan said...

Father, I have a sincere question....do you think it's ok that the 'gospa' said that all religions are the same in the eyes of God (and various other statements in direct contradiction to Catholic Church teaching)? or that these visionaries can tell the media down to the minute when she will appear the next day, or if they can't make it to a place that she 's going to postpone her 'press conference'?

I don't necessarily question their 'sincerity'...one can sincerely believe that they are a woman trapped in a man's body, or can sincerely believe that God is telling them to write a book where He says to take sex slaves, commit adultery with the wife of one's son, and slaughter Christians and Jews till the world runs red with their blood. In all these cases, they might sincerely believe it, but they would be wrong.

Might this be legitimate?...I don't know; there's certainly good fruit, but there's also some pretty clear bad fruit. Certainly, God can work great miracles and grant great favor where great faith is shown....but the circus-show atmosphere around this, and many statements contradictory to the Faith leave me with more than doubt.

Anonymous said...

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-francis-francisco-medjugorje-medjugorje-medjugorje-41662/

If this is true... what to make of it!

"One of the strangest “revelations” she makes is an unshakable belief that aliens exist and that “alien DNA” has mixed with “Terrestrian” DNA so that there are now “alien beings” ruling the world. The Vatican is described in the “prophesies” as den of all evils: “The Vatican is the centre of the global power that wants to create a single global religion uniting all false religions … it is the den of the seven deadly sins and other kinds of vileness.” In addition, Conchiglia deifies the figure of Mary. The false seer wrote a great deal about Benedict XVI’s resignation. She claims his resignation resulted from the workings of international masonry and that Ratzinger is apparently still the real and legitimate Pope, while Francis, whom she defines as a “wicked man seated at the Throne of Peter”, is an “imposter”, an anti-Pope, a representative of the Anti-Christ. These comments speak for themselves. Various figures have recently warned against Conchiglia’s “messages”, including the Bishop of Jesi (Italy), Gerardo Rocconi who met her in person and the Bishop of Senigallia (Italy), Giuseppe Orlandoni, who has repeatedly described the words of the false seer as “objectively heretical and against the doctrine of the Church”.

I would imagine after 33+ years there might be some legitimate statements thrown in the mix but REALLY?? What's the point of 33 years of 'visions' if not really having a point except the '10 secrets' which have been kept from the Vatican?

A very odd thing going on over there!

charles

susan said...

"She claims his resignation resulted from the workings of international masonry and that Ratzinger is apparently still the real and legitimate Pope, while Francis, whom she defines as a “wicked man seated at the Throne of Peter”, is an “imposter”, an anti-Pope, a representative of the Anti-Christ.'

Well!.....you just made have made a believer out of me.

Anonymous said...

Just wondering Susan; joshing or serious?

charles

Anonymous said...

How do you know that it is a 'circus atmosphere'? Have you ever been there? Here is a list of masses and devotions at Saint James parish


The daily evening program in the church takes place from 6 to 9 pm (6 pm: Rosary, 7 pm: Holy Mass, blessing of religious articles and the glorious mysteries of the Rosary).

Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is held Wednesday and Saturday from 10 to 11 pm and on Thursday immediately after evening mass.

Adoration and Veneration of the Cross take place in the church every Friday immediately after evening mass.

During the win­ter season, the prayer program starts one hour earlier.

Every Sunday at 4 pm, a Rosary for Peace is prayed on Appari­tion Hill and every Friday at 4 pm the Way of the Cross is prayed on Cross Mountain (during winter at 2pm respectively).

The sacrament of reconciliation in various languages is avail­able every day when the evening program starts and at previ­ously arranged times.

Mass in Croatian is celebrated Sunday and holy days of obliga­tion at 8 am, 11 am and 7 pm (winter: 6 pm); on weekdays at 7:30 am and 7 pm (winter: 6 pm).

On Saturday, Mass for Croatian pilgrims takes place at 1 pm in both winter and summer.

Holy Masses in English take place from Monday to Saturday at 10:00 am, and on Sunday & holy days of obligation at noon.

Does that seem like a 'circus' to you? You may be offending Our Lord....Have you ever been to a World Youth Day? When big groups of Catholics gather together it may seem like a circus to you, but the Holy Spirit is giving graces. Some of the caustic comments on this website detract from any of the good the website maker is trying to accomplish.

susan said...

tongue in cheek.

susan said...

...though I should add that I feel the 'thrust' of the quote is pretty accurate....a stopped clock and all that. An outstanding analysis of francis' latest abomination (in an unspeakable long list of abominations after only 2 years), handled with aplomb......

https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/when-dr-goebbels-advises-the-pope/

susan said...

Firstly, I addressed Father.

Secondly, there was nothing caustic in my question. You seem to be a true believer with no room for inconvenient observations or facts.

Thirdly, there has been a massive circus environment around some of these visionaries who themselves have become 'the show', and the fact that their 'gospa' has said much to contradict Catholic teaching and Tradition, not the least of which is that all religions are equal in the sight of God, makes my blood run cold...this is decidedly not Fatima or Lourdes, and these 'seers' are decidedly not St. Bernadette or the children of Fatima.

Fourthly, I've stated that God can grant great grace where great Faith is shown, and the Mass and prayer schedule is wonderful indeed, but the probability of these apparitions being real seems to be quite low if you're willing to look at the facts of how Mary has appeared in the past; and almost always with the same (and relatively limited) message, NEVER before contradicting Church teaching.

Fifthly, WYDs are the definition par excellence of circus atmosphere, Eucharistic desecration, and liturgical abuse. Is there grace disseminated...most certainly; but at great price to The Most Blessed Sacrament, handed around in plastic cups, passed overhead from hand to hand like a rave-participant in a mosh pit, dropped in the dirt, etc, etc.

Again, there is nothing intended or otherwise caustic about my comments....simply someone's sincere viewpoints and observations thru faith and reason.

Anonymous said...

There is no point sharing dialogue with someone so utterly convinced of their own thoughts. You, Susan, you know the Blessed Mother and how She speaks with Her children. Why aren't the Cardinals, Bishops and priests flocking to you to get your take on the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption and other dogmas of our faith? With your limited charity you would have it that only 0.0001% of the world's population would inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, but I am convinced that the Holy Trinity has other plans. I have looked at this website for months and trust me, your comments are caustic. Take it up in prayer is my 'unwanted' advice.

christopher said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeJH3ln-04

"One thing I do know is that I was blind and now I see.” John 9:25

christopher said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeJH3ln-04

"One thing I do know is that I was blind and now I see.” John 9:25

Anonymous said...

Susan, I have been to Medjugorje three times and have followed the events there since the mid-1980s. In the many masses I have experienced there, never has there been a "mosh pit" atmosphere or plastic cups, etc. I have seen 6 thousand people receive Communion in less than 15 minutes in silence and reverence with 100 priests con-celebrating. I have never seen more reverent people... from all over the world... who come to experience peace and love. The visionaries do NOT live luxurious lives. In fact, YOU would not want their lives-- always under the microscope and in silence, putting up with people who talk ABOUT the church and consider themselves speaking with authority FOR the church- huge pressures and responsibilities. My prayer is that someday you will understand and that the world will know that the Blessed Mother, in any apparition, strives to bring us back to Christ. It is in the air in Medjugorje and in the hearts of those who are open to the possibility that God granted Mary the opportunity to once again call us back....in these times and from this place.

susan said...

I used the mosh pit and plastic cups imagery in regard to WYD...please read more closely and accuse accurately.

And Anon 3:05; they don't flock to me because I don't claim the Blessed Mother is speaking with me every day, on demand, in statements contradictory to Church teaching.

Tancred said...

Apparently, popular appeal outweighs doctrinal orthodoxy in Father's estimation

Unknown said...

Ha ha , good one Susan.

Whether or not it's a hoax, if Francis is smart he'll approve it and turn it into an interfaith center for Eastern and Western religions. That would be a great way to further his agenda. Our Lady of M could become Our Lady of All Religions or some such nonsense.

Seattle kim

Anonymous said...

Push this agenda for a long time, keep reiterating the 'visions' are still ongoing, harp on the idea that 'one should go and visit ' there, till there is a popular enough opinion that could change (democracy) the mind of the church over doctrine, disregard bishops authority...

charles

Anonymous said...

It would make one wonder; just how far a pope can/would go just before the edge of the abyss...

charles

Catholic Mission said...

Pastorally Our Lady at Medugorje is in step with the Church
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/06/pastorally-our-lady-at-medugorje-is-in.html

Catholic Mission said...

Liberal theologian appointed to judge Medugorje
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/06/liberal-theologian-appointed-to-judge.html

James said...

Anything could be "more Catholic than the Pope" - it would be a nice change to have a Pope who is Catholic, instead of the Quislings who have poisoned the Church with their liberalism and other wickednesses since Bad Pope John decided he had been elected to wreck the Church of Christ. These incarnate devils need to be exorcised, PDQ and ASAP.

James said...

This flood of lying visions from Medjugorje and elsewhere would mot be deceiving Catholics at all, if only Montini had not in his folly changed the Church's previous wise discipline on the making known of alleged apparitions and visions.

James said...

We already have that at Fatima:

POPE'S APPROVAL FOR THE FATIMA INTERFAITH SHRINE

www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1138879/posts

18 May 2004 - POPE'S APPROVAL FOR THE FATIMA INTERFAITH SHRINE ... John Paul II recently gave the religious authorities of Fatima a marble fragment ...

Anonymous said...

If a visionary doesn't obey the Bishop of the Diocese then Our Lady is not appearing. The Bishop is the church authority of the diocese.There is no alternative authority. The Blessed Mother is God's model of perfect humility and obedience. The Bishop of Mostar directed that the visionaries not have their "apparitions" in public, but in private at home. That was in the 1980's. His successor repeated the directive years later. The seers did not obey their bishops, therefore they rejected the directives of the Church. Every public "apparition" is a deliberate act of disobedience on the part of the "visionaries".

There are to date, almost 35years later, no signs that the church can examine: no prophesy as in Fatima, Kibheo or Nicaragua. No miraculous sign such as the spring at Lourdes or the tilma at Guadalupe; no healing miracles that have been verified by the Lourdes Medical Bureau: though many medical files were sent from Medjugorje for approval.

There are only ten secrets the visionaries refuse to reveal to church authority: the only authority that can later confirm as them as authentic and pre-existing, if the events in the secrets actually do transpire. Under obedience Sr. Lucia wrote the third secret and gave it to the Bishop of Leiria. No such thing as a "visionary" who disobeys legitimate church authority.

Meanwhile the Five First Saturday's Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, requested by Our Lady at Fatima is terribly neglected and overshadowed. Fatima is largely empty, and Medjugorje has become for many devotees almost an article of faith. They can be horrified that one doesn't believe as if our very salvation depended upon it rather than the Church.

susan said...

Excellently said!...thank you.

Anonymous said...

Ah yes, because we now have division between "pastoral" and "theology."

When an alleged vision states heresy, it's not from heaven. The "Gospa" of Medjugorje stated that at the resurrection at the end of time, we will arise with new or different bodies.

Sorry, Jesus resurrected in His ONLY body and the same will happen to everyone else.

If you wish to see my source, see Donal Foley's book on Medjugorje (2nd edition).

Anonymous said...

And how much did you pay this "visionary" for the privilege of "visions on demand?"

Anonymous said...

Dear Susan,

thank you. I think that we must be as factual and reasonable as possible in discussing this. The subjective experiences that people have in M. are seemingly so powerful that it subdues their ability to accept facts and church teaching with regard to mariology and the importance of holy obedience in the conduct of alleged visionaries.
Its frustrating and often thankless, but persevere with charity.

Medj is not a harmless, devotional thing.There's a frantic, fanatical aspect to it. My friend and his sister were appalled that I did not believe in Medjugorje. Social pressure was exerted on me to go to M. and convert. I finally said I'd go when the Church approved of it. I was told " but by then it will be too late..." friend began to distrust me (obviously I was under a bad influence when I didn't believe). He stepped up going there to four times a year. He was certain that certain things were going to happen to his life. He felt a strong spiritual assurance of this in Medjugorje. The hoped for life changes never transpired for him, so then he thought He must live the messages even more intensely every day. Fasting until weak, Pray! pray! pray! I suggested daily Mass instead, but no, the Gospa wants fasting two days, and hours (four a day I think?) of prayer. As soon as he came home from Medjugorje he was planning his next trip out.He now suffers from depression and OCD. For many Medjugorje is an addiction, it may even be a cult. There is no dissent or reasonable arguement allowed in circles that are devoted to Medjugorje. I think it is dangerous, especially for OCD sufferers or people with delicate mental health. God Bless Susan, A.

Anonymous said...

There's been multiple documented resources which have shown the "seers" have fancy cars and a gated home. Also, how many vocations to the priesthood and religions life have come from the "seers"?

how about the alchemy too which as the late Fr. Malachi Martin said is "one of the oldest tricks of the devil".

If you're a follower of Medjugorje you've been deceived.

Anonymous said...

As Michael Davies points out, this is just a symptom of the authority crisis within the Church. Without clear authority coming from the Magisterium, people will seek it elsewhere; even in fantastically incredible "apparitions."

The Catholic Encyclopedia says that a true visionary seeks gently to repel the visions and that he does not try to compel others to believe them. This is contrary to what happens at Medjugorje, where the faithful are urged to pray that others will accept the reality of the apparitions.

From Unam Sanctum Catholicam (USC):

Medj. : "Children, I wish to give you messages in a way unprecedented in history."

USC: One can hardly deny that by the “apparition” making thousands of appearances whenever called upon by one of the seers, these messages are certainly unprecedented in history!

Medj.: “By praying you have helped me realize my plans. I shall implore my Son that all my plans will be realized. Dear children, without you I cannot help the world.”

USC: Does this mean that the intercession of our most gracious advocate depends entirely on the seers of Medjugorje?

Medj. : “Dear children, I ask all of you to live and change all negativity within you, so that everything will become positive and living.”

USC: This message seems to have come straight from a New Age manual. Some of the messages are of very dubious orthodoxy. On 1 Oct. ‘81 the apparition announced: “To God all religions are the same” using the Croatian word “iste” In a more detailed statement the apparition insists that all religions are equal: “There is but one God for all people, but people have conjured up several religions. My Son is the one Mediator and Saviour of all people, but, as I see it, people get on well if they live their own religion well, if they follow their conscience.”

USC: Is Our Lady saying here that the Catholic religion was conjured up by men? How can a religion founded by the incarnation of God the Son be put on the same plane as religions conjured up by men? This message certainly smacks of heresy.

Michael Davies tells of the example of the supposed visions of Palmar de Troya: I recollect very clearly a decade or so ago that I scandalised some devout friends by maintaining that the alleged apparitions at Palmar de Troya in Spain were inspired by the devil. I was asked how I could make such a claim in view of the piety manifested there: all night vigils, heroic acts of penance, the rosary, and financial sacrifices of staggering proportions. How could Satan have been responsible for such good fruits? I knew one devout and highly educated English Catholic who sold everything he had and abandoned his profession to go and live in Palmar. Later, when Clemente, the self-styled seer, proclaimed himself to be Pope and "excommunicated" everyone who did not recognise him as such, this friend and others withdrew from Palmar in horror, and admitted that they had been deceived. But the tragedy is that there are thousands who did not. Their faith had become identified with the authenticity of the Palmar sect. Satan had amputated them from the mystical body of Christ.

Anonymous said...

70,000 people saw the sun 'spin' at Fatima, which is taken as one of the proofs of its authenticity. At Medjugorje, millions of people see the sun 'spin' and many ignore it. I can assure you that something is going on there.

Tancred said...

Fatima wasn't a heterodox tourist site run by charlatans.

Anonymous said...

I'm positive 'something' is going on there. What it is exactly...doesn't sound like it's from heaven, so that leaves two other options...

http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Chiesa_viva_398_en_ok__8_.pdf

"The “seers” of Medjugorje even say they had been “simply
taken by the hand and led by the Madonna in heaven”:
«We have seen heaven and purgatory,” said Marija.
“One time, in Vicka’s, another time in my house,
and once again, I do not know where.
What a super abundance of extraterrestrial travel!
At Fatima, Our Lady showed the shepherds only hell
and they were markedly affected by the dreadful sight for
the rest of their lives!

Anonymous said...

Please consider the possibility that you've been misinformed. IF (and I say "IF" meaningfully) these apparitions are legitimate, then you can be certain that Satan is spreading rumors and lies to the fullest extent possible. Don't assume you're not vulnerable. Best advice (from Jesus): Look at the fruits. Don't measure things with an earthly scale (dollars), but consider the conversions, priestly vocations, confessions, miracles etc.

eimeara said...

Why do you defenders always get so annoyed when someone criticizes the visionaries? As it is I agree they do live on demand and lavishly and we don't need to be there to see it. I could post links of Ivan's fancy house and Mirjana's if you like

eimeara said...

The Medjugorje visionaries are show offs and love notice and as for Vicka's tour of hell, she speaks of it as an optional excursion. You would think Our Lady was a travel agent. Yeah that always struck me as odd the way the visionaries weren't affected by Hell like the Fatima seers were. And normally past seers aren't given an option as to whether they want to see Hell or not.

eimeara said...

Agreed. They are living lives of luxury and are show offs. Do they really need to travel the world to spread the message in our internet age? Look how Lourdes and Fatima spread and none of them toured the world. Bernadette never left France and Lucia was an enclosed nun

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