tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post566473127790632511..comments2024-03-19T03:46:14.803-07:00Comments on The Eponymous Flower: Sad Christmas for Franciscans of the Immaculate -- Three More Mass Locations Closed Down Just Before ChristmasTancredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-48199586082130083962014-01-05T14:27:02.354-08:002014-01-05T14:27:02.354-08:00Regarding the dispute over property and the accusa...Regarding the dispute over property and the accusation of embezzlement I found in the latest edition of the Chesterton Review an extract from Chapter X of Chesterton's "St Francis of Assisi" published in 1923: <br />It reads as follows:<br /><br />"... the general nature of the controversy that raged after the great saint's death, and to some extent troubled the last days of his life. The dominant detail was the interpretation of the vow of poverty, or the refusal of all possessions. Nobody, that is proposed to interfere with the negation of private property. But some Franciscans, invoking teh authority of Francis on their side, went further than this and further I think that anybody else has ever gone. They proposed to abolish not only private property but property. That is, they refused to be corporately responsible for anything at all; for any buildings or stores or tools; they refused to own to own them collectively even when they used them collectively. It is perfectly true that many, especially among the first supporters of this view, were men of a splendid and selfless spirit, wholly devotged to the great saint's ideal. It is also perfectly true that the Pope and the authorities did not think this conception was a workable arrangement, and went so far as modifying it as to set aside certain clauses in the great saint's will. But it is not at all easy to see that it was a workable arrangement or even an arrangement at all; for it was really a refusal to arrange anything. Everybody knew of course that Franciscans were communists; but this was not so much being a communist as being an anarchist. Surely upon any argument somebody or something must be answerable for what happened to or in or concerning a number of historic edifices and ordinary goods and chattels. Many idealists of a socialist sort, notably of the school of Mr Shaw or Mr Wells, have treated this dispute as if it were namely a case of the tyranny of wealthy and wicked pontiffs crushing the true Christianity of Christian Socialists. But in truth this extreme ideal was in a sense the very reverse of Socialist, or even social. Precisely the thing which these enthusiasts refused was that social ownership on which Socialism is built; what they primarily refused to do was what Socialists primarily exist to do; to own legally in their corporate capacity. Nor is it true that the tone of the Pope towards the enthusiasts was merely harsh and hostile. The Pope maintained for a long time a compromise which he had specially designed to meet their own conscientious objections; a compromise by which the Papacy itself held the property in a kind of trust for the owners who refused to touch it. The truth is that this incident shows two things which are common enough in Catholic history, but very little understood by the journalistic history of industrial civilisation. It shows that the Saints are sometimes great men where the Popes were small men. But it also shows that great men are sometimes wrong when small men are right. And it will be found, after all, very difficult for any candid and clear-headed outsider to deny that the Pope was right, when he insisted that the world was not made only for Franciscans."<br /><br />The present situation is somewhat different in that it is separate lay organisations that hold their property but it is interesting that the dispute is not new!Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-70791443111776878092013-12-31T23:44:20.482-08:002013-12-31T23:44:20.482-08:00Hey. I just found out that "Volpe" means...Hey. I just found out that "Volpe" means fox in Italian. (I know it doesn't say much. But...). Hmmm... Christ called someone a fox in the Gospels. Have we forgotten the reason? These are sad times for the Roman Catholic Church. But it is only the beginning. For the enemies of our Faith, the FI case is for study purposes. If, for them, all works out "well", then they will go over to plan "B" - the persecution of the whole Church. Christ said: "You know how to read weather signs, how come you do not know how to read the signs of the (end) times?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-64624564464271054172013-12-31T23:43:25.190-08:002013-12-31T23:43:25.190-08:00Hey. I just found out that "Volpe" means...Hey. I just found out that "Volpe" means fox in Italian. (I know it doesn't say much. But...). Hmmm... Christ called someone a fox in the Gospels. Have we forgotten the reason? These are sad times for the Roman Catholic Church. But it is only the beginning. For the enemies of our Faith, the FI case is for study purposes. If, for them, all works out "well", then they will go over to plan "B" - the persecution of the whole Church. Christ said: "You know how to read weather signs, how come you do not know how to read the signs of the (end) times?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-14160828678548739132013-12-31T15:56:31.732-08:002013-12-31T15:56:31.732-08:00Where are the severe disciplinary measures on that...Where are the severe disciplinary measures on that gay mafia? hmmm? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-56801502842810241012013-12-31T15:18:53.704-08:002013-12-31T15:18:53.704-08:00In my previous comment I asked:
"Or is this ...In my previous comment I asked:<br /><br />"Or is this a much wider conflict within the Curia and the FFI are just a victim of that?"<br /><br />Well Father Volpi has answered in the affirmative – see the previous paragraph. It seems that Cardinal Braz de Aviz at the Institutes of Consecrated Life... has had disagreements with the CDF over the American Nuns. Does that suggest he is a liberal? His secretary is another Franciscan - Carballo. But here we are getting into speculations about individuals which at present should be avoided. However generally we may ask whether there is a liberal camp, in the Curia, who see Pope Francis's papacy as an opportunity to attack the orthodox? It is common in such disputes to blacken the character of the opposition by describing them as being "in opposition to the new pontificate of Pope Francis" just because they are defending orthodoxy. It is similar to claiming that anyone who does not accept some liberal idea must be a Lefebrvist or anyone who venerates Our Lady of Fatima belongs to an extreme group which attacks successive Popes on the grounds that they have not consecrated Russia to her Immaculate Heart. If Father Volpi is right about the Curia it does seem that both Pope Francis and the FFI are being used in some liberal attack on orthodoxy. We will have to wait and see! Perhaps Pope Francis will eventually see what is happening and put a stop to it.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-37443982045495760742013-12-31T14:11:23.996-08:002013-12-31T14:11:23.996-08:00This article at Rorate explains some of this: http...This article at Rorate explains some of this: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/12/franciscans-of-immaculate-part-2-from.html#more<br /><br />also the Sisters were forced to issue a statement defending themselves: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/12/important-franciscan-sisters-of.html<br /><br />The Manelli family hired an attorney to contest the false accusations and defamation against them as well.<br /><br />To accuse Franciscans who live radical poverty is really something else indeed. Still no heresy, schism, or disobedience to be found!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-57958385527247960272013-12-31T14:05:45.646-08:002013-12-31T14:05:45.646-08:00And so the dismantling of true Catholicism begins ...And so the dismantling of true Catholicism begins and won't end here. This is only the beginning and no doubt we will see more sad things happening in our Church especially with the Holy Mass and all things traditional in the coming year. The faithful will suffer alot. We can only pray and persevere in our faith remembering that Jesus and Mary and all the Saints are with the faithful always.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-17443015907518318772013-12-31T13:42:12.277-08:002013-12-31T13:42:12.277-08:00There was an article by Michael J Miller in the Ca...There was an article by Michael J Miller in the Catholic World Report of 16th December 2013. He was defending Father Volpi. In it he said: <br /><br />“It is clear enough from the earlier documentation posted at www.immacolata.com that:<br /><br />…<br /><br />- Father Stefano M. Manelli imposed Mass in Latin as the only form of celebration permitted in the seminary and novitiates; again, this substantially modified the character of FFI formation and <i>de factor</i> changed the constitutions of the Institute without prior approval.”<br /><br /><br />The impression has been given that this alleged imposition was what led to Father Volpi's appointment as Commissioner. I had therefore asked what evidence Father Volpi had to make the assertion that Father Manelli had made this “imposition”. However I cannot find any evidence that Father Volpi made that assertion – if anyone knows anything to the contrary please correct me. It seems that this may have been an invention or misunderstanding by Miller and others in the Press. The friars on their website clarified the situation:<br /><br />http://www.immacolata.com/index.php/en/35-apostolato/fi-news/230-risposta-vatican-insider<br /><br />“With a letter, Prot. 77/2011, dated 21 Nov 2011, our General Secretary, in the name of our General Council, sent all the F.F.I. Marian Houses (Friaries), some indicative (not preceptive!) norms regarding the use of the Vetus Ordo and the harmony between the Vetus Ordo and the Novus Ordo in our Communities and our Institute.<br />After this letter, various communities peacefully continued to give pride of place to the Vetus or the Novus Ordo. So there was no imposition on the part of Fr. Manelli.<br /> <br />Some Friars, however, contested the aforesaid letter. Therefore, we consulted the Pontificial Commission “Ecclesia Dei”, which with a R e s c r i p t of 14 Apr 2012, Prot. 39/2011L, found conformity between this letter (Prot. 77/2011) and the "mens" of Holy Father Benedict XVI, expressed in the already-mentioned Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, n° 8a.”<br /><br />So it seems that Father Manelli merely exhorted the friars to use the EF at conventual masses but did NOT order it. His exhortation was then checked out by “Ecclesia Dei” who said it was okay. So what then seems to have happened is that “some Friars” not satisfied with the decision of “Ecclesia Dei” made another protest, this time successfully, to the Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, and got the Commissioner, Father Volpi, appointed. <br /><br />So it rather looks as though this appointment was made in response to protests over a mere exhortation and not an imposition. This only makes the sanctions imposed by Father Volpi even more strange and over the top. Secondly does this suggest a conflict between Ecclesia Dei and the Institutes over the validity of the exhortation? Perhaps this explains Father Volpi's strange comment “"I wondered why there is this oftentimes ardent interest in our affairs, and I concluded that the Institute has become the battleground of a struggle between different currents in the Curia, with the specific involvement of persons in opposition to the new pontificate of Pope Francis."<br /><br />Anyway this disposes of the question of the “imposition” by Father Manelli but we are left with the questions as to the alleged embezzlement and the “distortions” by the Sisters. Or is this a much wider conflict within the Curia and the FFI are just a victim of that?<br />Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-53531846595417674102013-12-31T11:10:35.359-08:002013-12-31T11:10:35.359-08:00Barbara, I know exactly what you are going through...Barbara, I know exactly what you are going through. I, too, have prayed to Our Lord and His Blessed Mother to straighten out my thinking if it is wrong. For years I have prayed for this. Countless novenas have been prayed as well. I have been left with the thought that what I do during this crisis is up to me as I have gotten no clear direction. But. Relying on myself to make that decision is a scary prospect.<br /><br />I will pray for you, Barbara, and it goes without saying that I need your prayers for me.<br /><br />God bless you!<br /><br />DelphinaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-89544968056503650132013-12-31T10:06:26.350-08:002013-12-31T10:06:26.350-08:00As someone close to the Order for many years...the...As someone close to the Order for many years...the anonymous moniker is to avoid persecution against the person writing if they are a member of the Order. Understand? The founders NEVER imposed the Vetus Ordo on all the friaries. At least one friary in the US never did accept it at all, for example. It is true that the EF was to be the 'Mass of predilection' but not imposed on all in the Order or to every friary.<br /><br />There is still no reason for the suppressing of this faithful Order at least on the human level. But the persecution we know makes for the earning of many graces and is opportunity to grow in holiness. A good site is found at http://pray4thefriars.wordpress.com/<br /><br />A short video on the embracing of the EF is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCEqIUbeF2MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-81727784357200529062013-12-31T04:29:34.859-08:002013-12-31T04:29:34.859-08:00Anonymous: There are several people here using th...Anonymous: There are several people here using the Anonymous label which makes discussion very difficult. Why not use your own name or if you must a distinct pseudonym?<br /><br />However I would reply to your question with a another question: Is an order to say Mass in the Extraordinary Form only, justification for all the sanctions which Father Vulpi has imposed on the FFI?<br /><br />Even if you think so, you are left with the problem of whether the Founder of the FFI ever did make such a requirement to use the EF exclusively. Father Vulpi said he did; the FFI on their official website said he did not. Is there any documentary evidence to show that he did? If he did then surely there must be some contemporary written evidence of such a requirement or did he do it all by word of mouth? Just what is Father Vulpi's evidence for this?<br /><br />I fail to see how you can suggest that the draconian sanctions can be regarded as superficial. Have you read Father Vulpi's letter of 8th December?Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-35636436969398540122013-12-30T19:24:10.091-08:002013-12-30T19:24:10.091-08:00The suppression of the FFI goes way beyond the Lit...The suppression of the FFI goes way beyond the Liturgy, involves lies and the suppression of their work, their writings, devotional focus, not to mention the disruption in the spiritual lives of the laity who depend on the Friars for their spiritual life.<br />Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-2426639733747180732013-12-30T19:21:28.816-08:002013-12-30T19:21:28.816-08:00You're obviously not paying attention or are u...You're obviously not paying attention or are unconcerned with the facts.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-16237343207205505982013-12-30T17:26:34.661-08:002013-12-30T17:26:34.661-08:00Is an order to say Mass in the Vernacular only (No...Is an order to say Mass in the Vernacular only (Novus Ordo) a form of persecution ? - Give me a break. That is not martyrdom. This whole episode is confusing and superficial. Persecution is when the Holy Mass is forbidden by force. We should be Thankful for the Eucharist in whatever language It is prayed .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-60940107578276548422013-12-30T14:29:29.786-08:002013-12-30T14:29:29.786-08:00The LCWR had the world media pulling for it. None...The LCWR had the world media pulling for it. None of the major networks have been roused to do a story on this. Where the LCWR nuns are clearly engaged in malfeasance and flagrant misrepresentation, the visitation has gone from criticism to adulation with the new guy in charge.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-54092080791689126542013-12-30T14:16:11.101-08:002013-12-30T14:16:11.101-08:00I didn't notice the "investigator of the ...I didn't notice the "investigator of the women religious" closing any convents, transferring personnel to other continents, closing down publishing houses, suspending the taking of vows and formation, depriving sisters of their spiritual life, suppressing third orders, restricting the movement of sisters, preventing communication between sisters, leveling numerous serious allegations about their good faith and standing in the Church, and equating any questioning of his role and actions to disloyalty to the Vicar of Christ and constitutive of schism!<br /><br />If this wolf among the sheep is an indication of the future direction of this Papacy, then the Pope is revealed as nothing but a worthless hireling - he is no shepherd.Deacon Augustinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03549825303646357455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-18340026334172671872013-12-30T10:31:39.219-08:002013-12-30T10:31:39.219-08:00What we do know is that the founders have been dep...What we do know is that the founders have been deposed, many superiors demoted, faithful friars sent to faraway places in punishment, the seminary is closed, ordinations are suppressed, Third Order is suppressed, lay apostolates are suppressed (these honor Our Lady), book sales suppressed, intimidation and threats as well as unfounded accusations are public. And all this with NO proven heresy, crime, or schism. That is what we know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-4353179574797637802013-12-30T07:10:51.593-08:002013-12-30T07:10:51.593-08:00Anonymous of Dec 30: I do not think anyone is enj...Anonymous of Dec 30: I do not think anyone is enjoying this and certainly we must not rush to judgement. As to letting the matter take its course many people are very concerned as to what that course would be and would like to see matters calm down and be taken somewhat more gently. As to "findings": so far we have seen several allegations by Father Volpi but nothing much to support any findings. As I have suggested above he needs to answer some questions as to what evidence he has to support his allegations.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-61465634771228519502013-12-30T06:58:48.271-08:002013-12-30T06:58:48.271-08:00Says you.Says you.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-90786117917755477232013-12-30T06:54:34.687-08:002013-12-30T06:54:34.687-08:00gollum we are, enjoying trial by blog & convi...gollum we are, enjoying trial by blog & convicting the investigator, rather than letting it take its course, God forbid we let the findings get in the way, just as bad as those on the far left attacking the investigator of the women religious. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-5619450584870047052013-12-29T07:04:07.208-08:002013-12-29T07:04:07.208-08:00Help! Sorry about all the typing errors!
BarbaraHelp! Sorry about all the typing errors!<br /><br />BarbaraAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-88861567124358416432013-12-29T07:02:11.006-08:002013-12-29T07:02:11.006-08:00Oh yes it's me Delphina. How nice to find you ...Oh yes it's me Delphina. How nice to find you here! Well if a Catholic wants to live authentically they have to face the truth of what's happening in the institutional Church. <br /><br />It is a tragedy and most distressing that the faithful cannot count on the present hierarchy to lead us in true Catholic ways, but as I said it would appear that most have lost the Faith of our Fathers. I haven't though as through the grace and providence of God I can attend the TLM regularly. Our priest and the faithful there all think as we do here. They are appalled at such relentless discrimination and persecution of the FFI. So we are not alone.<br />Our Lord will surely intervene soon as the prsent Vatican leaders so obviously do not love Him or His Church. I don't even know what they are doing there. I certainly won't follow them - they are no Catholic - not even cleraly protestant - but are creating something else that is most certainly cut off from any Divine authority. <br />I am with the Church ,Catholic Tradition transmitted for 2000 years and Peter. The present Pope and hierarchy I am unable to relate to. I have pleaded with Our Lord to straighten out my thinking if it is bad and non-Catholic and just my personal ideas - in the sense that I actually find the lot of "them" quite unbearable and at times nauseating. However I can quite easily pray for them all especially Pope Francis who I hope will receive a divine intervention and start being and talking like a real pope and not some worldy VIP filmstar type flattering the world. <br /><br />Our Lady will win!<br />Let's pray for each other!<br /><br />BarbaraAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-24781133209564280322013-12-29T05:28:21.172-08:002013-12-29T05:28:21.172-08:00Yes, his behaviour is extremely improper even just...Yes, his behaviour is extremely improper even just from a procedural standpoint, and highly prejudicial. If he were a judge or tribunal in civil arena, he'd have been removed - and disciplined. Yet, he seems to be able to carry on this flagrantly arbitrary, unjust and malicious extreme penalisation and defamatory campaign with impunity. It is tyrannical and extremely vicious. Lyndanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-4156715464368827182013-12-28T14:16:07.696-08:002013-12-28T14:16:07.696-08:00I do believe it is essential to keep this matter a...I do believe it is essential to keep this matter as simple as possible. I would suggest that Father Volpi needs to answer three simple questions:<br /><br />1. He has accused the family of the founder of embezzlement - a civil tort and a crime. What solid evidence does he have of this that would be sufficient to support such an accusation in court?<br /><br />2. What evidence does he have that the founder required the whole of the FFI to use the Extraordinary Form exclusively?<br /><br />3. What are the "distortions" he says the Sisters fed to the male branch of the order?<br /><br />He needs to answer these questions as a matter of simple Justice.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-44975983889240133272013-12-28T13:09:36.106-08:002013-12-28T13:09:36.106-08:00To Anonymous on Dec.28,
Thanks for providing the ...To Anonymous on Dec.28,<br /><br />Thanks for providing the web address for the letter written by a friar in Italy which describes in greater detail the terrible reality of the situation for the FFI. The google translate worked well for the article, and it is fairly easy to read. I would encourage everyone who is concerned about the FFI to read it. Such a sad situation.Enochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08369786606235804817noreply@blogger.com