tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post2297427777502606434..comments2024-03-29T00:16:25.097-07:00Comments on The Eponymous Flower: Lex Dubia Non Obligat -- Against an Unjust Law and Legal Positivism Which Has Penetrated the ChurchTancredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-52126164089797771692013-08-17T12:22:09.847-07:002013-08-17T12:22:09.847-07:00You are right, Fire: the new Mass certainly is ord...You are right, Fire: the new Mass certainly is ordinary, in thes sense of dull, uninteresting and forgettable, and the Ancient Rite Mass certainly is "extraordinary" in the very truest sense of that word.<br /><br />You implied that the Ancient Rite is not as ancient as claimed? My friend you have some reading to catch up on. That Rite can be directly traced to the time of Christ; it was not suddenly cooked up out of nowhere in the Tridentine era (unlike the New Rite which was cooked up out of nowhere in the swinging 60s). I recommend reading Klaus Gamber on that subject. That should well answer your objection.Aged parenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05217229048176272954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-52691895350922873472013-08-17T12:16:04.991-07:002013-08-17T12:16:04.991-07:00Mr Gilbert:
The dangerous fraud that the Charisma...Mr Gilbert:<br /><br />The dangerous fraud that the Charismatic Movement is can best be shown by the so-called "speaking in tongues" phenomena engaged in by the adherents of this Movement. I have myself witnessed grown men and women standing like zombies, spewing unintellogble gibberish (some doing so while actually rolling on the floor as if in a state of demonic possession) and later calling that performace "speaking in tongues".<br /><br />The uninstructed watch these goings-on and believe they are witnessing the work of the Holy Ghost, but they are witnessing nothing of the kind. The Church teaches that what was actually happening when the Apostles and other missionaries were speaking in tongues was simply this: these men spoke in their own language but those who heard them heard the words in their language. That was the miracle that God provided. When the Apostles were teaching other nations they were not rolling on the ground and speaking gobbledygook; they were speaking in their own native tongue. It was their hearers that heard and undertood the words as if said in THEIR native language.<br /><br />Any sensible person who has taken the trouble to understand these things is fully convinced that Charismatism is a total fraud, and those Churchmen who promote it or merely tolerate it will have that on their conscience.schmenznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-68622342692821228802013-08-16T10:53:01.090-07:002013-08-16T10:53:01.090-07:00In 1972, Archbishop Dwyer of the United States had...In 1972, Archbishop Dwyer of the United States had this to say abut the oinking, barking, laughing, holy-rollers fof the charismatic movement <b>We regard it bluntly as one of the most dangerous trends in the Church in our time, closely allied in spirit with other disruptive and divisive movements; threatening grave harm to unity and damage to countless souls.</b><br /><br />Ok, Mr. Gilbert. It was you who boastfully asked the question and all I have done is respond. I could post more but as to why anyone with a sensus catholicus would need an authority to condemn such an inanity as the charismatic movement is beyond me.<br /><br />I would just write that you ought not follow those oinking little piggies as they are headed for the protestant market.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-74826437138090815622013-08-16T10:24:43.908-07:002013-08-16T10:24:43.908-07:00Ah, Schmenz, but I was not aware that it is a here...<i>Ah, Schmenz, but I was not aware that it is a heresy. Perhaps you could point me to a council, an encyclical, an apostolic letter, anything authoritative? . . . from any bishop . . . ever.</i><br /><br />Dear Mr. Gilbert. I knew I ought not to have sourced Tradition to respond to your boastful challenge, and, so, I will just cite Pope Paul VI:<br /><br />On May 17, 1972, <b>Pope Paul VI condemned the charismatic movement, saying that it directly attacked the "the very existence of the Church," leading to "extinguishing the real flame of Pentecost, disregarding the thought of Christ and of the whole of Tradition."</b><br /><br />This prolly came as a response to the Toronto <i><b> blessing </b></i>where charismatics were rolling on the floor laughing hysterically, barking like dogs and oinking like pigs...<br /><br />http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_011br_CloseUps_Horvat.htm<br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-37739120266389947432013-08-16T05:17:00.887-07:002013-08-16T05:17:00.887-07:00The First Vatican Council had in no way defined th...<i>The First Vatican Council had in no way defined the pope as an absolute monarch. On the contrary, it presented him as the guarantor of obedience to the revealed Word. The pope's authority is bound to the Tradition of faith... Even the pope can only be a humble servant... The authority of the pope is not unlimited; it is at the service of Sacred Tradition. . . </i><br /><br />Joseph Cardinal RatzingerMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-99074151368398882013-08-16T05:11:31.302-07:002013-08-16T05:11:31.302-07:00http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-87180124947119236002013-08-16T03:51:58.388-07:002013-08-16T03:51:58.388-07:00Popes, as visible sources and symbol of the unity ...<i>Popes, as visible sources and symbol of the unity of the Church, are not in favor of movements, and policies and persons who favor schism.</i><br /><br />Not so; see Kiko and The Neocat movement, to say nothing about the approval of a "mass' that has no words of consecration, to say nothing about refusing to convert Jews, to say nothing about praying with heretics, to say nothing about kissing Korans, to say nothing about asking a Saint to preserve Mahometanism...etc etc etcMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-89054659954807542322013-08-16T03:45:35.179-07:002013-08-16T03:45:35.179-07:00The thought of your feverishly rummaging through t...<i>The thought of your feverishly rummaging through the documents of the Church trying to find something, anything that would show the charismatic renewal condemned, and then coming up with passage that condemns conflating the ministerial priesthood with the priesthood of the laity is something that strikes me as totally hilarious</i><br /><br />Dear Mr. Gilbert. You could learn a thing or two from lawyers who know not to ask a question to which a damning answer might result and which answer might jeopardise their case.<br /><br />You asked and I responded. C'est la vie.<br /><br />How's that whole laying-on-of-hands-thingy working out for ya? And that <i>sacrament </i> of anointing and being slain in the spirit<br /><br />And, finally, Mr. Gilbert all we are doing is following Saint Thomas Aquinas whereas you are following protestants of the type that I was learnt were Holy-Rollers.<br /><br />A Pope can not justly forbid that which is Holy and The Gregorian Rite is certainly that and the Gregorian Rite was an organic development from the Mass of Saint Peter.<br /><br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-2295031400650061222013-08-15T16:55:23.673-07:002013-08-15T16:55:23.673-07:00I’m also not interested in this Montanist revival ...I’m also not interested in this Montanist revival or your continuing evasion of the principles of non-contradiction and false obedience.<br />Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-85245322041312589322013-08-15T16:54:26.063-07:002013-08-15T16:54:26.063-07:00I don’t think this Neomontanist movement would hav...I don’t think this Neomontanist movement would have gotten far without the endorsement of Cardinal Suenens and other progressive Bishops at the time.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-34695724199646443262013-08-15T16:51:34.101-07:002013-08-15T16:51:34.101-07:00Tancred,
You write, "The Charismatic Moveme...Tancred, <br /><br />You write, "The Charismatic Movement was founded by one of the most progressive, disobedient and destructive Bishops of the 20th century . . . "<br /><br />Look, one wants to be courteous, but you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. The Charismatic Renewal began with laymen at Duquesne University in 1967 and quickly moved its center to Notre Dame. I became involved in 1968. I think it may have been in 1971 that Archbishop Bernardin spoke at an International Charismatic Conference at Notre Dame in his capacity as president of the USCCB. So far as I know that was the extent of his influence or involvement. In 1973, five years later, Cardinal Suenens visited True House, a charismatic community at Notre Dame of which I was a member at the time. From that point he became heavily involved, but he was hardly a founder. So who are you talking about exactly? <br /><br />You are similarly well-informed about Montanism. The logic goes like this: Montanism had prophets and was condemned as a heresy. The Charismatic Renewal has prophets, therefore it must be a heresy also. That there might be a distinction between true and false prophets seems not to have occurred to those who make this comparison.<br /><br />The charismatic renewal has enjoyed the support of all the popes from Paul VI on.<br /><br />You write, "If you're not going to demand obedience or else from dissident and sodomite clergy, it's a bit of a stretch then to oppress Catholics and their clergy who've done nothing wrong, of what is their right by the Church's law."<br /><br />This paragraph begins in calumny and ends in ignorance. The pope is the supreme lawgiver in the Church. If he says that the EF is not to be celebrated in certain circumstances, that is the law, and it is his right to be obeyed, and our duty to comply. "“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven”" (Matt 16:18-19). I am amazed that you (pl) feel strong enough to contend with Heaven over this issue, for you are specifically urging rebellion against Peter. Yet somehow you imagine yourselves to be "a truly Catholic and loyal laity" while those who urge obedience to the Supreme Pontiff are somehow "progressive." Completely amazing. This is one very mixed up corner of the Church, where obedience is disloyalty, and disobedience is loyalty. <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Lee Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506547355314136320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-38887493214080867702013-08-15T15:47:03.477-07:002013-08-15T15:47:03.477-07:00I've pretty much despaired of expecting any in...I've pretty much despaired of expecting any integrity from progressives who seem to think the law of no contradiction can be trumped by pure emotionalism.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-16098266631316428132013-08-15T15:45:32.481-07:002013-08-15T15:45:32.481-07:00The Charismatic Movement was founded by one of the...The Charismatic Movement was founded by one of the most progressive, disobedient and destructive Bishops of the 20th century, and it is disingenuous to believe that such a resurgence of Montaniism, has any validity as a Catholic movement. Once again, the laity is only heard from when they are oo rationally obedient to the progressive spirit destroying the Church. When the laity points out obvious evil and injustice, as in this case, they suddenly don't want to hear the laity.<br /><br />No other organization in the world could function with those kinds of double standards. <br /><br />If you're not going to demand obedience or else from dissident and sodomite clergy, it's a bit of a stretch then to oppress Catholics and their clergy who've done nothing wrong, of what is their righ by the Church's law.<br /><br />Vatican II called on the laity to be more vocal, now that a truly Catholic and loyal laity speaks, it is the progressives and their lap dogs who cry out for obedience.<br /><br />Medjugorje anyone?Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-55645713335904290612013-08-15T15:06:32.278-07:002013-08-15T15:06:32.278-07:00Lee GilbertAugust 15, 2013 at 2:56 PM
Ian Spartacu...Lee GilbertAugust 15, 2013 at 2:56 PM<br />Ian Spartacus,<br /><br />The thought of your feverishly rummaging through the documents of the Church trying to find something, anything that would show the charismatic renewal condemned, and then coming up with passage that condemns conflating the ministerial priesthood with the priesthood of the laity is something that strikes me as totally hilarious. Of the millions and millions of Catholics who have become charismatics over the past forty-five years, I have never heard of one who thought that he had thereby been given the powers of the priesthood!!! What are you talking about? <br /><br />Then there is the less amusing fact that you present yourself as an exponent of the Tradition while at the same time urging rebellion against the Vicar of Christ. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. The Apostolic Succession IS the Tradition, the very Tradition against which you urge rebellion. <br /><br />You accuse me(and millions of others) of heresy without being able to produce a scintilla of evidence that it is condemned by a council, a pope, a bishop anywhere ever, while you yourself brazenly try to lead other Catholics into schism. You present yourself as trying to preserve and foster the celebration of the Extraordinary Form while at the same time urging a policy that would quite justifiably lead to its total suppression. With friends like you, the EF does not need enemies. Popes, as visible sources and symbol of the unity of the Church, are not in favor of movements, and policies and persons who favor schism. We have had enough schisms. Very ironically you, protest-ant, locate me and fellow charismatics among the Protestants. Who, here, is protesting against the Pope in time honored Protestant fashion, hmmmm? <br /><br />Again, it doesn't take a prophet to see that in this decision by the Pope the Franciscans and the whole Church have been given a wonderful opportunity to bring down many, many blessings on the Church by simply accepting this decision and obeying it cheerfully and with exactitude. It is truly an opportunity to foster the rapid diffusion of the Extraordinary form throughout the Church.<br /><br />We know what Jesus would do, since he obeyed unto death a truly unjust sentence, and we know the reward he received. We also know what many saints have done in similar situations. Within living memory Padre Pio obeyed an unjust decree of the Pope. If he had followed the policy you foolishly recommend, there would have been no St. Pio, nor the many, many graces that came through him and are coming through him. <br /><br />These are the kind of blessings you wish to deprive us of by your absurd incitings to rebellion, but have a care Ian, for "Rebellion is as sinful as witchcraft, and stubbornness as bad as worshiping idols"(1 Sam 23). That passage is from the mouth of Samuel the prophet when he rebuked Saul for his disobedience. He further said, "So because you have rejected the command of the LORD, he has rejected you as king." If you wish one day to find yourself on the outside of the Church looking in, then continue urging rebellion. It is not a line of conduct that has any future, not for you, not for the Church, and certainly not for the widespread and generous implementation of Summorum Pontificum.Lee Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506547355314136320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-63265794326485643582013-08-15T14:56:01.459-07:002013-08-15T14:56:01.459-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lee Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506547355314136320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-43351545842029445562013-08-15T12:03:50.451-07:002013-08-15T12:03:50.451-07:00Dear Mr. Gilbert. Here is Trent on your fanciful a...Dear Mr. Gilbert. Here is Trent on your fanciful and protestant claims:<br /><br /><i>CHAPTER IV<br /><br />On the Ecclesiastical hierarchy, and on Ordination.<br /><br />But, forasmuch as in the sacrament of Order, as also in Baptism and Confirmation, a character is imprinted, which can neither be effaced nor taken away; the holy Synod with reason condemns the opinion of those, who assert that the priests of the New Testament have only a temporary power; and that those who have once been rightly ordained, can again become laymen, if they do not exercise the ministry of the word of God. And if any one affirm, that all Christians indiscrimately are priests of the New Testament,<b> or that they are all mutually endowed with an equal spiritual power, he clearly does nothing but confound the ecclesiastical hierarchy, which is as an army set in array; as if, contrary to the doctrine of blessed Paul, all were apostles, all prophets, all evangelists, all pastors, all doctors.</b></i><br /><br />One would have thought a self-professed prophet was aware of this.<br /><br />I will finish by turning your question back at you - Prior to V2, cite a Magisterial Text granting permission to laymen to claim that they are prophets.<br /><br />As King of a tiny country, as one who has built his own rocket ship and flown it to Mars and back in just under 72 hours, as one who was the first to solve the Rubix Cube blinded-folded while asleep in a deprivation tank, as one who could out-eat Oprah, I must write that I find your questionable claims nettlesome.<br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-48888412087007526502013-08-15T09:59:06.598-07:002013-08-15T09:59:06.598-07:00"You, thankfully, aren't running the Orde..."You, thankfully, aren't running the Order."<br /><br />I agree wholeheartedly! As to what would I do if my bishop or superior ordered me to play in traffic or attend a Masonic service---well, that would be SIN and I would therefore have to refuse. It is not sin for the FI to be obedient to this (I hope) temporary command and as Lee Gilbert wrote--before being attacked himself--there are graces that come from the obedience. The Immaculate will work this out if trust can be given her.Magdalenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523226432587407685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-36528585009065119442013-08-15T09:27:54.593-07:002013-08-15T09:27:54.593-07:00Your last leap in logic is not logical. It cannot ...Your last leap in logic is not logical. It cannot happen that in following obedience, we make a mistake. Does that apply to parents that abuse children? Should the children obey? Does that apply to politicians that lie in support of Obama Care. Should Catholic Hospitals start aborting children? Does it not apply when the world followed the Arian Heresy, and only a few with Anthansius disobeyed. God does love obedience, but He loves more those who love Him beyond the mere obedience of men and who demonstrate through the gift of wisdom their faithfulness to His will, not the mistaken erroneous errors that man many times makes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205857428271187446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-69230013096322111932013-08-15T09:25:46.098-07:002013-08-15T09:25:46.098-07:00Would you obey your Bishop if he ordered you to pa...Would you obey your Bishop if he ordered you to participate in an "Interfaith” celebration with Satanists and/or Freemasons?Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-47333072789538218892013-08-15T09:23:58.861-07:002013-08-15T09:23:58.861-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205857428271187446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-77155483973068035802013-08-15T08:21:27.098-07:002013-08-15T08:21:27.098-07:00Despite not being remotely Catholic, LCWR is in &q...Despite not being remotely Catholic, LCWR is in "good standing", while many clergy who are not, are really Catholic. Perhaps FatherZ fits into the "not in good standing" category himself?Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-81230227717563859582013-08-15T08:13:53.347-07:002013-08-15T08:13:53.347-07:00Ah, Schmenz, but I was not aware that it is a here...Ah, Schmenz, but I was not aware that it is a heresy. Perhaps you could point me to a council, an encyclical, an apostolic letter, anything authoritative? . . . from any bishop . . . ever.<br /><br />Nevertheless, as a parable my tale works perfectly. There is no blessing in disobedience, and in fact the surest, the quickest, the most infallibly certain way to make sure that the EF is forbidden is to make it an instrument of disunity, a rallying point for schismatics. Yes, that would do it. <br /><br />Both from the standpoint of unity ( ONE , Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) and of spirituality, there is no difference, no essential difference between the theology of disobedience expressed here and that of the the LCWR. It is a spirituality of rebellion and of resentment, albeit tricked out with a patina of scholarship and legalese. <br /><br />Lee Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506547355314136320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-81537900276680437662013-08-15T08:09:54.733-07:002013-08-15T08:09:54.733-07:00Dear FOTL. Some recalcitrant recusants refer to Re...Dear FOTL. Some recalcitrant recusants refer to Real Mass as The Gregorian Rite; some, like my own self, prefer to refer to them asThe Real Mass vs The Lil' Licit Liturgy.<br /><br />I imagine that if, say, on your Wedding Day you arrived at the altar wearing scuba gear, playing bag pipes, wearing football spikes on your feet and had lighted sparklers crammed in your ears and then you answered, <b> Sure</b> to the question..<i> Do you take....</i> then your wife might be miffed and your family disgusted with you for treating so casually something so important.<br /><br />As it is the case that God is rather more important than your wife or mine, ought we not worship him with the very best that we can put forth; you know, like in The Gregorian Rite rather than the calvinistic liturgy of Paul VI ?<br /><br />What exactly is it that you have against Tradition and the Good, the True, and the Beautiful?Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-85240372200181669962013-08-15T08:09:42.295-07:002013-08-15T08:09:42.295-07:00I refer to it as the Immemorial Rite, because that...I refer to it as the Immemorial Rite, because that's what it has always been and what it will always be.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-30948939154797309972013-08-15T07:56:54.082-07:002013-08-15T07:56:54.082-07:00Why do these articles never refer to the form of M...Why do these articles never refer to the form of Mass they speak of by the proper names of Tridentine and Extraordinary. Is it because the former sheds light that it is not as ancient as claimed and the latter reminds us that it is no longer the regular form?<br />Does the author deny the validity of the Novus Ordo? If valid, you have the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ: what more do you need? If valid, you have union of worship with Heaven: what more do you need?<br />I understand preferring the extraordinary form, but remember it is extra ordinary, not ordinary. Fire of Thy Lovehttp://fireofthylove.comnoreply@blogger.com