Thursday, December 20, 2012

Apologetics Cruisers

Edit: is there a rule against taking some form of recreation even during Lent?  In a time when most Catholics don't  fast during Lent, much less avoid meat, this newfound Jansenism on the part of some borders on the hypocritical.   For what could be worse? Supporting abortion, sodomy, the distribution of condoms and Marxist schemes using the Catholic name, or going on a cruise during Lent with Father Z?

Surely, some of these effete newly austere navel gazers have the purest motives when they attack Michael Voris and FatherZ for holding a Lenten Retreat aboard a ship bound for the Caribean islands.

Critics of this retreat would do well to take a close look at what they're objecting to.  A retreat can be a  a beautiful place, even a kind of hothouse, with good food and companions, where a man can withdraw, retreat, from the rigors of his life to take stock, still his heart and listen for God's voice.

Most retreat facilities fall nothing short of luxurious and might be accused of providing a vision of heaven and are comparable to an above average to luxurious hotel.  After all, what is a cruise ship but a hotel on the water?  Even the more austere retreat houses are far from uncomfortable, but not all of us are Carthusians, or meant to be.

Certainly, the J.R.R. Tolkien's imaginative creation of the last refuge of the Noldor in Middle Earth at Rivendell has been compared to a retreat, a place to rest and refresh the soul.  It is nothing short of glorious and luxurious.

Indeed, there are few things more peaceful than sailing along the water, watching a magnificent sunset and hearing the sound of the waves and the birds after having heard a moving and thoughtful Conference by the skillful retreat director.

Any way, the Catholic Church's own puritanical Jacobins are up in arms all over the place and the usual suspects are making themselves heard.  Some of the most vocal critics have been on "apologetics" cruises themselves, which were quite expensive and frankly decadent, upwards of 10,000 dollars.  

The cost of going on a Father Z and Michael Voris cruise is $1,000-$2,000,  which is rather Spartan in comparison.

Karl Keating himself has been kind and wise enough to see how this current blogger frenzy might bleed over into his own Catholic cruise interests, which one of the most vocal critics of Voris forgets he benefits from.

93 comments:

  1. Am I reading correctly that this is during Lent?? my first reaction is that this is not at all a good time for such an adventure.

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  2. Let's just say that the timing of the cruise could have been a little more thoughtfully considered.

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    1. It can be what you make it to be. I have been on one cruise and it was sponsored by Catholic Sacred Scripture study and there were priests and apologists. We had daily Mass, confessions, seminars. I did indeed make it a retreat and walking the Prominade Deck with my rosary while at sea was quite soothing. It was an Alaskan cruise.

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  3. I think most of the people attacking Voris for the timing of this cruise do far worse things on an almost weekly basis.

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  4. I don't know how any Catholic who has been properly taught the spirituality of Lent could possibly go on any kind of a cruise. This is really disappointing to see happening. Two men who spend a great deal of time criticizing those who behave in less than orthodox and traditional ways, yet they are arranging something entirely unorthodox and untraditional.

    What I find equally saddening is how some who promote traditionalism are simply caving on this just because it's Voris and Fr. Z. Just imagine for a minute that someone like Michael Sean Winters teamed up with Fr. James Martin, SJ for a Lenten cruise. Would you feel the same way?

    Tancred - the real measure isn't what other people do on a weekly basis. The real measure is Jesus Christ. I can't reconcile an enjoyable cruise with Our Lord's example during the great fast.

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    1. If you know of a piece of legislation or a principle which indicates the illiceity of this, aside from some pious sentiments, I'm all ears.

      I've laughed at Karl Keating for his apologetics cruises in the past, but I've also had to admit that there doesn't seem to be anything objectively wrong with it.

      People have gone on pilgrimages (which is a kind of retreat) for centuries, utilizing ships, and going to locales which are nothing short of exotic.

      Unlike Mark Shea, Simcha Fisher and some of the usual suspects at patheos, I don't have to resort to this kind of infantile nitpicking to find things to criticize when it comes to heterodox internet presences like James Martin SJ. Indeed, if they went on a Lenten cruise, that wouldn't even be icing on the cake.

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  5. I just going to assume Lenten Retreats in amd of themselves are ok. I'm not seeing how having one on a boat makes a Lenten Retreat wicked, bad or evil. Is it the water, or floating and moving on water that makes a Lenten Retreat, a good thing into something evil?

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  6. This is a joke, right? You're not really saying that we should "take a break" during Lent and go on a luxurious cruise surrounded by people doing the most worldly things possible, and then say anyone who disagrees with you is a "Jansenist", "effete newly austere navel gazers" and "puritanical Jacobins". This blog has suddenly lost a lot of credibility.

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    1. I keep on asking all of you holy rollers for a principle that's at stake, and all you can talk about is your feelings.

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    2. Not sailing with V and ZDecember 22, 2012 at 3:41 AM

      I agree with Catholic in Brooklyn and most of the posters here. Including the comment by above that this blog has suddenly lost alot of credibility. I'm rather shocked myself that you would stoop to name-calling.

      If you want principles at stake try this one. That money spent to hear Voris and Fr. Zuhlsdorf cackle and crow would be better spent as almsgiving.

      Your turn. How about a principle out of you that says that a cruise is an effacacious lenten activity? Especially hosted by two characters who while they do often provide good and needed words, have also very often provided erroneous theological opinions and displayed a lack of charity that is unbecoming of a Catholic man.

      Check back with us later and tell us how many Society priests joined the cruise or encouraged their parishioners to do so.

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    3. You're the one who is accusing the people involved in the cruise of being outrageous. The burden of proof is on you.

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  7. HERE IS A LETTER FROM MICHAEL VORIS POSTED ON PRO-LIFE CORNER - IT IS FROM MICHAEL VORIS. ALL OF YOU WHO THINK THIS RETREAT IS WRONG MUST HAVE HEARTS OF STONE.

    Hello Frank,

    Thank you for your kind words and support.

    We are very much looking forward to the retreat as are the nearly 100 people who have signed up in the past few weeks. So many are coming, in fact, that we have had to go line to the cruise line to ask for more rooms. We are putting together what we think will be a wonderful opportunity for meditation and reflection during the Year of Faith, with a concentration on The Blessed Mother, The Scriptures and The Sacraments, in addition to The Church in the Modern World.

    We are also VERY excited that many many Catholics who up to this point, have not known each other, will have the chance to BE catholic with each other and develop what almost assuredly will become lasting friendships despite some great distances once they return home. We have people coming from Europe, Asia and Oceania, which is wonderful.

    They are coming because they want their faith to be reinvigorated, and emboldened – to meet, in short, others in The Communion of Saints. The presence of priests on board for Mass, Confession, talks and private guidance is literally a God-send. And one additional consideration – our cruise organizers have said they only with rare exception due members of the crew ever get to attend Mass because of their very long work hours. So we are going to open up our Masse for them and try to also have additional Masses said for them, in case some of them cannot attend Mass during our regular schedule.

    And you may be certain, that with 100+ solid Catholics on board, it wont be surprising, we hope, to see some perhaps wayward or lax Catholics, or others of good faith be invited to sit in on a conference or two. What added benefits of holding a retreat where other non-retreatant passengers can learn about the faith in the formal setting of a conference, or informally just talking with them casually over dinner.

    Thank you again for the opportunity to share our excitement.

    GOD Bless,

    Michael

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    1. This is what you present as a defense of and argument for this cruise? LOL They have nothing to offer that folks don't already have available to them at home. If they take this trip it is for the "celebs" and their autographs and nothing more. Quasi-catholics Cruiselines.

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    2. Well, that is your heart of stone take on the cruise but I'm sure the 100 people you just slandered and the crew members who will be will be going to Mass who other wise would not have the oppertunity see it with a heart of love.

      By the way here is another response from Michael Voris to this situation and those who are attacking him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysh-bnF-icc&feature=player_embedded

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  8. "Jansenist", "effete newly austere navel gazers", "puritanical Jacobins"... excellent, bang-on descriptors, Tancred.

    May I add "Neo-Cat hipsters" to the mix?

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    1. Yes, you may. You may also share in the sin for doing so.

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    2. Thank you, Anonymous.

      A question: Would you be a member of Queen Simcha's court or, perchance, an assistant to Diva Shea?

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    3. Thanks TH2. It's interesting to see the Neo-cat hipsters make common cause with the mentally moribund and brittle, imploding Sedevacantists.

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    4. I don't even know what you said. Is your Name gpmtrad??

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  9. If they had the same format for the retreat on land would there be so must unjust judgements and whining? I doubt it.

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  10. I can understand people having some skepticism over this. When one thinks of a cruise they normally think luxury and vacation.

    But I don't think it needs to be like that. As a retired Naval Officer, I have spend a lot of time at sea. And being the "brown shoe" variety, it has been on aircraft carriers that usually have some manner of food 24 hours a day, a gym, and cable TV. Of course there is work as well. But I can say that at sea was the only time I have been able to recite the The Little Office. It was the only place that I could routinely go to daily Mass. It was the only place that could go to confession by simply knocking on the door of the priest. It was the only place the regularly ate with my priest and could discuss all manner of things with him.

    Now I realize that an aircraft carrier is different than a cruise ship. But such a setting will provide isolation from the rest of world and the OPPORTUNITY to take part in activities all day that I assume are planned for the participants. And if they do a little bit of things that are enjoyable, so what. Are the rest of us at home during lent completely avoiding any enjoyment? And besides, you need to break up such an activities similar to how the Benedictines break break prayer from work and vice-versa.

    So skepticism is fine. It might turn out to be a bad idea. But lets keep an open mind and not make it so emotional.

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  11. I wonder how many of the people criticizing this have actually been on a retreat, Lenten or otherwise.

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  12. I am somewhat ashamed to be a part of this group that spills forth negative comments regarding the Lenten cruise. Those individuals that criticize, find fault, pass judgment, and censure Michael Voris and Fr Z for originating this wonderful retreat are hypocritical to say the least. Chances are most of these negative comments come from those who practice little of Lenten sorrows. Too bad these folks could not be more generous in their thoughts of others.
    eddie

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  13. If this "retreat" was being done on land (and we're not talking Las Vegas, which is what the Cruise ship basically is), instead of a luxurious cruise ship, or if the cruise was at any other time of year, none of us would have the least problem with this. Do any of you who support this "Lenten cruise" honestly feel that our Lord, who spent 40 days in the desert, would take any time out for a luxurious Caribbean cruise? And why is it that those who support the cruise have no trouble making ad hominem attacks against others who disagree with you?

    @Jeffrey Stuart - if they decide to have it on an aircraft carrier as opposed to a luxury cruise ship and stay in little cells, I'll be the first in line to support a "Lenten cruise.

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    1. Have you ever been on a retreat?

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    2. At this point you're just repeating yourself. Try and come up with a coherent argument.

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    3. Take a look at my blog.

      http://catholicinbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2012/12/michael-voris-and-father-z-say-what.html

      I'm also going to answer your post as well. Look for it if you care to.

      Why are you so nasty to those who disagree with you? Don't you think anyone else can have an opinion that might be different from yours?

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    4. I wasn't aware that questioning your emotional appeals was nasty.

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    5. tMaybe you need to take another look at your post, which I pointed out in my first comment.

      I am not talking about feelings. Lent is a time to retreat from the world. It is a time to turn off as much as you can and go out into the desert with our Lord. Believe it or not, there are some of us who actually do the Great Fast. Lent is a time for austerity, for getting away from materialism. I just don't see how you're going to do that on a luxury cruise. Why not just go to Las Vegas. There is no difference.

      That has nothing to do with feelings. You are obscuring the issue with that comment.

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    6. You're holding up an ideal for what a retreat should look like, and you're proud of yourself for going above and beyond in your lenten observances, but I still don't see anything coming from you or anyone else where this is objectively sinful.

      Lent might be for austerity, but you don't get to decide how people spend their lent, do you?

      How you spend your Lent is your business, and will remain your business until you perhaps get yourself a job as Bishop or Abbess, or whatever your gender might be.


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    7. This is from your blog actually:

      "Certainly there is nothing sinful in and of itself about this event. There is no church dogma that says you may not go on a luxury cruise during Lent. But if you're really serious about observing this most solemn time of the liturgical year, why would you want to do this? "

      You're also presuming that someone who goes on the cruise won't be able to take lent seriously, or at least as seriously as you think they should.

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    8. What you call an "ideal" was, not that long ago, required practice for Catholics. I am not making decisions for anyone. I am merely stating my opinion and letting people decide for themselves. If you read my blog, I plainly state that it is not a sin to go on this cruise. I just think it is a horrible idea.

      Why is it okay for you state your opinion and tell people that they are "Jansenist", "effete newly austere navel gazers" and "puritanical Jacobins" if they disagree with you, but the rest of us, who are not engaging in name calling, have to keep our mouths shut?

      BTW, I'm still waiting to hear your defense of Father Z for letting Michael Voris take all the heat for this.

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    9. If this event isn't sinful, as you state, then you really don't have anything to say about it.

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    10. I don't see how asking that question on my blog is pressuring anyone. I''m asking a question that might cause people to reflect. That's pressure? And your name calling is not pressure?

      I'm writing a response to your blog. Take a look at it when I finish. I'm done here.

      I do believe Lent is the most important, sacred time of year, and yes, I do believe all Catholics should take it that seriously. And I will not apologize for that.

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    11. Little cells? As a senior officer, I probably had a bigger stateroom on the "boat" (carrier) than they will on a cruise liner given the price they are paying. You know, one can go on a cruise ship and not gamble or get involved in questionable activities. Even on the "boat" there is plenty of opportunity to get involved in all manner of non-edifying things.

      Again, I'm okay with you having questions. I just think you really ought to know more before passing judgment.

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    12. BTW, Brooklyn. I took a look at your blog post. The picture you show as a the stateroom doesn't correspond to the price they are paying. I took look at the fare on the cruise line website and this is the room you get for that price.

      http://www.princess.com/learn/ships/co/staterooms/co_oceanview_double.html

      Regardless of your feelings on this, I'm confident that you will want to change the picture out in the interest of being honest.

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    13. I took the picture directly from the Princess Cruise website. It is one of the staterooms available for the Voris/Zuhlsdorf cruise. There is nothing dishonest about it.

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    14. It is dishonest. There are all manner of rooms available on a cruise ship but the one you show IS NOT what is being offered for their retreat. It's very easy to compare is being charged for the cruise to what that price corresponds to in terms of stateroom.

      My picture is accurate. I did the homework. Your choice to do the right thing now that I have done some more research for you.

      Why wouldn't you want to be accurate?

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    15. Just did another check. The picture you show would cost around 1700 per person.

      Do the right thing.

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    16. I stayed in a retreat house where my room had a fountain in it and valuable oil paintings on the wall, on a luxury property near a lake, during lent. It actual made the room in that photo pale by comparison.

      Ok, I'll concede that Micheal Voris is, in your words, not sinning, but is possibly using luxury accommodations and sponsoring a retreat during Lent where a ship will be bound to some tropical islands.

      I'll also concede that you don't know what the retreatants are going to be doing or whether or not they will find this retreat spiritually beneficial or not.

      For all you know, they'll be sleeping on a bed of nails and wearing hair shirts the entire time.

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  14. One other thought - why do you think that Father Z has not mentioned one word of this on his blog? Why is he letting Voris take all the heat for it?

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    1. Karl Keating, president of Catholic Answers, posted this on his Facebook page. The retreat police are encouraged to read it:

      "I hold no brief for Michael Voris, but as an organizer of Catholic cruises (Mark has been a speaker–and a very good one!–for us) I should point out that the $1,084 Voris is charging works out to $155 per day. That includes the equivalent of hotels, all meals, and car expenses for a driving vacation that visits five far-flung cities in a week. You easily could spend more than that trying to do such a land-only vacation, so in that sense Voris’s cruise shouldn’t be labeled a luxury or expensive trip.

      I thought the critique at Simcha Fisher’s blog was very poorly done–so poorly that it never should have been posted.

      The reviewer starts by referring to “the Michael Voris Love Boat.” That migth be acceptable if Voris were sponsoring a cruise for singles looking for spouses, but that isn’t at all what his video or ad say. A cheap shot.

      The reviewer says that Voris “is going to charge the suckers who watch him thousands of dollars for a ‘retreat’ at sea. During Lent. That’s right. Thousand[s] of dollars spent to go on a spiritual retreat on a cruise ship with casinos and all night buffets.”

      First of all, using “suckers” is another cheap shot.

      Second, the fee isn’t “thousands of dollars” but just over one thousand dollars. (Can’t you read the man’s ad?)

      Third, nearly all Catholic cruises, no matter what time of year, are held on big ships that have casinos. Big ships mean lower costs per person, and big ships universally have casinos. (On Catholic Answers cruises we just ignore the casinos and go about our own business.)

      Fourth, “all night buffets”? I checked the description of this cruise at the Princess Cruises website and couldn’t find any reference to all-night buffets. Catholic Answers has used several cruise lines over the years (but not Princess), and none of them had an all-night buffet.

      Granted, Lent doesn’t seem the best time of year to set a cruise (maybe Voris chose March because the rates are low then), but–unlike something claimed in the comments above–his group won’t be partying on the ship on Good Friday–because Good Friday is on March 29, and his cruise ends 12 days earlier! Still another cheap shot.

      I don’t object to criticizing Voris when criticism is due (which is often enough, I’m afraid), but let’s play fair, shall we? Don’t make things up, and don’t exaggerate. Cheap shots (which are mainly plain old falsehoods) don’t bring any credit to their authors."

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  15. I have read way to many posts and comments about this. Funny, I haven't heard one good argument about why this shouldn't be done. I will be going on this with my wife, even during Lent. During that time I will be doing a full fast with abstinence. That is one full meal of fish or no meat and 2 snacks that don't amount to a meal. Will it be more difficult with the temptation, I'm sure, but part of the goal is to be able to overcome the temptation. Christ was tempted as well during Lent.

    I am not cloistered either, I live in the world. There is nothing going on on this cruise that I can't find within 5 to 10 minutes of my house. Though at home I cannot get the opportunity to spend time with devout fellow Catholics nor get to hear solid Catholic doctrine every day. My job keeps me from going to daily Mass, but here I will be able to. I will have to opportunity to go to Confession daily as well. The cost is not that great, akin to an average vacation. If I was to fly to some other locale for a spiritual retreat, rent a car to drive there, etc. it would cost roughly the same.

    Every criticism I have seen thus far are from those that don't like Michael Voris, for this reason or that, and are using this to attack. These are all people, I would be willing to bet, who have never met the man. I have. I have had him as a guest in my house and have visited him and those that work at ChurchMilitant.TV. They are good and devout Catholics. Sadly, those whom have a theological difference have thus far taken to personal attacks. They come off as petty attacking someone they have never met or shared a meal with. If this is the best they can attack, the Evil One needs a different method of attack. Sante Michael, ora pro nobis.

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    1. There are different kinds of retreats, one was in a very expensive hotel that had television in the rooms (which I never watched, because there was so much going on in the conference rooms and lots of fellowship with fellow hardcore Catholics), another was in a facility owned by the Jesuits. I've also been on retreats where I spent three days alone in a small cabin, eating fruits and bread with some nuts. I still haven't been on the 30 day Ignatian Retreat.

      I've never been on a retreat on a ship, but I can't see any reason why I wouldn't go on this one either.

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  16. What I found really amazing on the "I Have to Sit Down" blog with the fertility goddess statue in the header, by Fisher who also blogs on NCR is that they have this "Jerk" character blogging as a guest and posting really nasty "movie reviews" that talk about Sean Connery's crotch etc (look at the Jerks old posts) and really bash certain people, especially MV. They even have a photo of him with a sword and the caption "There better not be any jews on board". The post was titled "which one is Gilligan". I am pretty sure that is meant to imply that MV hates jews or would kill Jews. That is some serious slander if you ask me. The same Ms. F sells yoga pants on the site, during Advent and probably Lent too, for $400 with the word "dignity" plastered across the rear and some really questionable ad copy about how men always look at women's crotches! As someone pointed out, the cost of three or four pairs of these immodest pants would equal the cruise! So how can she criticize MV? Also she sells a "pants pass" which is some weird pass that one's husband is supposed to sign if the wife goes out in pants I guess. It took me a while to figure out that she is making fun of catholic women who wear dresses and skirts...This gutter level crap has to be seen to be believed. I used to like her posts, thought they were funny. Can't believe the NCR would have her or Shea as bloggers after reading Shea's calling people trying to stop the MV bashing "cult" members, flying monkeys, kool aid drinkers etc. I think he actually believes that Voris tells people to go on blogs to defend him. He cant believe thinking people would do it on principle.You gotta see this stuff to believe it!

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    1. I think NCR intervened and made her take it down. I think I also recall that she made some comments alleging that Micheal Voris has issues with his sexual identity, using some effeminate language or other.

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    2. I doubt if they could make her take down posts on her "personal" blog "I Have to Sit Down" as all of this stuff was on this site, not NCR...she didnt actually put much on the NCR blog,just a comment that create combox wars.

      I just find it so self-righteous for these folks to come down on MV for being self-righteous! But to actually sell pants that say dignity on the rear, drawing men's eyes to that part purposely and trying to defend it!
      Do some people really think that mature catholic adults on a cruise cannot control themselves when confronted with drunk people, booze etc? seems like great turf for witnessing to me, after coming out of Mass and some good talks!
      And then to say , well, it isnt the retreat cruise per se, its that it is during Lent...while I doubt if the $400 pants come off the webstore for Lent...really strange. What do you think about the photo of MV with the sword and the caption "There better not be any Jews on board" Is that not actionable slander?

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    3. I think a lot of what she wrote about Voris was abusive and defamatory, and I understand that Karl Keating took her and others to task for it.

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    4. yes, he tried but you should read what her response to him was, started out with "what's a guy like you doing in a place like this", very mocking and even worse about MV than the original post by "the Jerk" on her site that she says is a "guest"

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    5. They took Fisher to task, but she remains unrepentant. She asked her fans to write the editor-in-chief of National Catholic Register on her behalf, which loads of them did. As a matter of Christian charity (not to mention it's the professional & right thing to do), she needs to apologize to both Voris and Fr. Z for her husband's disgusting post (he is "The Jerk", and she fully approves of his writing) and take it down. He insinuates that Voris is a closet homosexual and anti-semitic, which is calumny, pure and simple.

      You can write to Jeanette DeMelo, NCR editor-in-chief, here:

      jdemelo@ewtn.com

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    6. thanks for the update...I saw her pathetic plea for help from her fans...sickening..I got a response from Dan Burke that said he was going to do something ab out the situation. but then his nasty post came out criticizing liturgical experiences he had over Christmas. While I may agree with some of his points he was pretty nasty and mean. Has the devil taken over the blogosphere? I cannot believe the lack of charity among Catholics!

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  17. yeah, its all still up on her "personal" but very PUBLIC blog "I Have to Sit Down". I wont even go into the ad copy about yoga that goes with the pants...I thought the Pope or Bishops wrote something to the effect that yoga brings in Hindu influence. It does, I am an ex-hindu cult member.

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    1. Ok, I found it. I mistakenly thought she'd taken it down, but this is definitely actionable:

      "How could I? Americas favorite crusader against secretly gay bishops who only happen to be revealed as secretly gay when they disagree with Voris (can someone say closet case?) is planning a fun Caribbean cruise for all of his super-fans. Just Like RuPaul."

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    2. its so creepy the more you dig around. I had to literally take a shower and then beg God to not let me sin in writing or thinking about this...

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    3. Apparently, it's attributable to "The Jerk". I don't know if he/she/it is a kind of imaginary character like Rush Limbaugh's Mr. Snerdly, but I've never heard a real man talk like that, not ever.

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    4. some of it is definitely Fisher, like her response to Karl Keating in the combox
      and the stuff in her webstore
      Even if "the Jerk" is a guest blogger, she should be responsible for reviewing his content since its on her site...

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    5. "The Jerk" is Fisher's husband, and she fully approves of his writing.

      As I've said elsewhere, there is nothing more cowardly than lobbing verbal grenades while hiding behind the fortress of anonymity. On top of it, he lets his wife take the incoming hits. A real class act, this one!

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  18. I am praying that MV and Fr. Z NEVER respond to any of this...

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  19. The $400 pair of trousers that Ms Fisher is selling with the word "Dignity" on the arse is an obvious dig at Colleen Hammond's "Dressing with Dignity."

    Very classy.

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  20. I'm not a Fr. Zuhlsdorf or Voris fan, but I'll say they're far better than anyone associated with the National Neocatholic Register.

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    1. hi, can you explain what you mean? I am a recent revert...

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    2. beagle thinks he's so much more Catholic than everyone else...not sure why, but i think he should get his nose out of the air before his face ends up covered in mud...

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    3. Oh hi, you must be a patheos fan. You're certainly a poor mind-and-soul-reader. Apparently I can't have likes, dislikes and kinda-likes without thinking someone is less Catholic than I. As far as sticking noses in the air, you ought to head over there and tell that to some of those haughty, arrogant folks.

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    4. Just for the record, I have a lot of antipathy for Father Z and I don't like Voris' position on the SSPX which is even less informative than it is charitable, but hey, these fellows must be doing something right to be earning such antagonists as Mark Shea and Jimmy Akin.

      Merry Christmas btw!

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    5. I might as well say too that I certainly don't consider them enemies of God or anything crazy like that. I don't even read or pay much attention to V or Z. I'm sure I don't agree with them on some stuff, but I'm more sick of the whole blog/forum thing in general. If I could make Web 2.0 vanish, I'd do so, but of course I'd spare you Tanc. :)

      I have to commend Z-V for doing some good things and stirring a few pots that needed stirring.

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  21. Well, it's a long story. The way I look at it, you got three groups, old guard mean angry nasty bad anti-VII/Novus Ordo traditionalists like Bp. Tissier and Bp. Williamson. That's about where I'm at, maybe somewhat towards the left end of the group. Catholic Family News is an old guard trad pub.

    Then there's the neo-Catholics. The Neo-cats are often called the 'conservatives' or simply 'orthodox Catholics.' They're all over EWTN, the National Catholic Register, Patheticos and so forth. Some of them jumped on the traditional Mass bandwagon when it became cool and hip. They also tend to rationalize away or ignore every dumb thing Paul VI and JPII did. Also, they get mad when you call them 'neo-Catholics.' They're usually good with basic theology, but are largely clueless on anything pertaining to the current crisis. And yes, that was a very biased summary.

    Now we have a third group that's popped up, and that's sorta where Voris and Zuhlsdorf fall. Their position tends to be somewhere in between, but there's a lot of overlap between neo-t and neo-c. AKA Neo-traditionalists, indult Catholics, Extraordinary Formers, etc. They get along better with the neo-cats than old guarders, but as you can see, they often butt heads.

    Neo-trads don't like old guarders (what the neos call 'radtrads'), neo-cats don't like old guarders and sometimes don't like neo-trads, and old guarders don't like either of 'em.

    I guess it's kinda like how the Augustinian schools and the Dominican/Thomist schools used to battle it out. You get a big group of people in a wacky time like ours, and differences will pop up. You got some good people in each group. A lot of them get too deep into all this stuff and would be better off just unplugging.

    It's a confusing mess, so don't feel bad if you can't figure it out from that sketchy outline.

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    1. There's nothing confusing about this at all. You've got some people who spend too much time home alone, no pun intended, and you've got some people who are shilling for the USCCB and dislike the work Voris is doing in exposing the rot in the American Church.

      He's threatening their boondoggle.

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    2. Well yeah, this particular controversy is pretty easy to sort out, just trying to explain some of the deeper divisions underlying it all. Assumed he didn't know what a neo-cat was, and that gets you into all sorts of other stuff.

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    3. The Truth of the Catholic Faith is going to hurt Its enemies within and without every time, no matter who's saying it, and the bad guys are going to try and attack the messenger every time.

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    4. But I do appreciate that there are faction as you describe it.

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    5. I'm sick of professional Catholics and wanna be journalists anyhow. Wish the patheos and similar types would just pull the plug and go away.

      Joke or not, that 'Stupid Stuff' store should be flushed. It's stupid all right, but not in an amusing Plan 9-kinda way.

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    6. that was for my benefit I think, as I am the recent revert posting as unknown above, and want to understand all of this better. I am very attracted to Voris's stuff as I came out of the 70's when my family was destroyed by divorce and feminism and I myself went through a very dark self destructive period that included an abortion (under the blood now). I met Jesus in 1995 and spent 10 years in denominations before finding my way back to the True Church. I am also attracted to the "old guard" I think because I love to wear a chapel veil, and kneel for communion. I cannot even imagine receiving in the hand! I have not been to many Latin masses but I think I would love it! My dad, fluent in Latin, but a little tweaked due to his weird experiences with cruel nuns in the 40's, came back to the faith before he died and I got my mom out of the Hindu cult we were both in in California! We just got back from Rome with my two teenage boys! Also,
      I have loved the NCR and frequent Dan Burke's spiritual direction site often. Also Ewtn played a huge role in bringing me home. Yet I also think it was scandalous that JPII was photographed kissing a Koran and cannot believe the rush to canonize him. I think it should take at least a hundred years...

      So I guess what I'm saying is that I feel a kinship with each of the three groups on some things...I just had no idea that some in each "group" hated each other and would attack each other on blogs! It really saddens me so I will pray. Thank you for helping me to understand the politics of all this stuff. I know Jesus is sovereign and that as long as I stay close to him and the sacraments and the awareness of my own sinfulness I will be ok. Thank you Tancred and Beagle and Merry Christmas!

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    7. Thanks for chiming in. Basically, I think there are people on all sides that are good wille and charitable. I really like John Vennari, Catholic Order (UK), and Traditionalists of the Michael Davies School at the Remnant. I think there are good willed people all around who've had the kinds of situations you've described and are coming out of the bad dream. There are decent people with the National Catholic Register, but then there are irresponsible and ill-willed professional Catholics who are as malignant as a plague of rats as far as I'm concerned. They expect quarter to be given them, but they are unwilling to give it themselves and they all suffer from a fundamental lack of almost any fundamentals whatever, and lord it over people with their emotionalism and vindictive tribal terrorism.

      The way I figure, if you stick to the Catholic Catechism and don't make up your own rules, you might not be greeted with open arms in all the parts of the world, you'll at least be welcomed in all the right parts.

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    8. if you might be talking about Mark Shea, he scares me!!!!! and he jumped all over me in the combox of Ms. F when I was trying to defend Michael Voris! it was really freaky...

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    9. I sort of know Dan Burke so I sent him the texts of the attacks and pics from the "Jerk's posts" and just honestly asked him how/why the NCR has these two bloggers at all??? I mean really, there aren't other bloggers without such questionable ethics?

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    10. I must say I love the way Voris is now calling them the "evil 60's" it is so true, the destruction that was wrought some of us are only just now waking up from.

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    11. He's highlighting a social holocaust, and it's making some powerful people uncomfortable. I like that.

      The only way out for us is to practice the Faith and trust in Our Lady and Her Son.

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    12. Unknown wrote: ".I just had no idea that some in each "group" hated each other and would attack each other on blogs! It really saddens me so I will pray."

      I can tell you that Voris doesn't hate anyone at all. Shea has mentioned him disparagingly in dozens and dozens of posts; you'll not find a single uncharitable word spoken of him by Voris, nowhere.

      Voris generally avoids getting involved in this sort of internecine warfare that has nothing to do with the salvation of souls, which is why, unlike Shea, Voris will likely not be found defending himself in comboxes all over the blogosphere or FB. He cares about one thing only: saving souls.

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    13. And you've definitely got something there, Cyril, about shilling for the USCCB. From what I know, it was only after Voris did the exposé on the CCHD (which we all know is the domestic charitable arm of the USCCB) that he became persona non grata with staffers there, and some bishops also decided to distance themselves from him, calling his work "divisive."

      And there's the problem with the modern church right there.

      If bishops are more concerned about "divisiveness" than they are about stopping the USCCB's funding of the intrinsic evils of abortion, contraception, and the gay agenda, then God help us.

      This is why Voris won't be invited to any USCCB bloggers conferences anytime soon, whereas the "safe" bloggers will, the ones who can be trusted to keep their mouths shut.

      He has the backing of one of the most respected prelates in the Church, Cardinal Raymond Burke, who appreciates the fact that Voris speaks the truth in a way others won't. As we know, Cdl Burke was roundly mocked by fellow bishops when he himself was Abp of St. Louis and promoted the TLM as well as strongly pushed for the enforcement of Canon 915. Weaker bishops, too afraid to enforce this canon, persecuted Burke--until he was promoted to Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura.

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    14. thank you Christine, for clarifying. I have indeed not seen one word of defense by Voris. but I think he may be onto something by staying off the blogosphere. It seems to be rife with attacks. Now Dan Burke is even at it on NCR about his Christmas liturgy experiences. shame on you Dan...

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    15. Voris hasn't left the internet. What are you talking about?

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    16. he doesn't BLOG is what I said...unless I don't even get the definition of blog, I thought that referred to a written site, not videos. does he have a written blog?

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    17. Vlog (Video-blog) and Blog are synonymous.

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  22. There's a whole subgroup of bloggers at patheticos/ncr that say the same kind of crap. If you took the names off the blogs, you wouldn't be sure which was which. Better to stay away from them.

    And is the Jerk joking when he (apparently) objects to Voris' video on the Jews? I looked it and it was basic stuff. Perhaps I'm just not getting the hipster humor or something.

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  23. And this is the beginning of the dying of the "Spirit of Vatican II" cult being played out in the blogosphere. Those who so desperately are attempting to retain the novelties that have run rampant over the past 50 years are not going without a fight. Whether it be the Heterodox, the Gay-friendly, the new agers et al, none of them are going to quietly resign themselves to returning to a true, Traditional based Faith. And any and all who attempt to point out the naked Emperor will be pilloried by the supporters of the "New Church" created by them.
    Many Catholics who attempt to fence sit and "go-along to get-along" are going to find themselves forced into making a choice. This will become very nasty before it finishes, as has been predicted by The Blessed Mother and several Saints. Pray for strength, Faith, Grace and Perseverance.

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  24. This is a very interesting and important subject. Are there any articles that describe the history in the Church of the evolution of the three groups? Neo-catholics, neo-traditionalists and "old-guarders?"
    If not, it would seem to be something valuable for someone knowledgeable and reasonably un-biased (if that is possible) to do. Perhaps a team effort by several authors?

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  25. To understand the root cause, please read this:
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

    And I would encourage you to read any or all of Michael Davies' books for a good description of the current crisis. I would also add "the Rhine Flows into The Tiber" by Rev. Fr. Ralph Wiltgen. That will give you a pretty good idea of where we are now.

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  26. If I were to go on this cruise--and believe me when I say I was tempted--it would be because I would like to take an inexpensive cruise and rub elbows with Catholic celebs ( how great would photos of Michael---very handsome,btw--Voris & me look on my FB page ?? ;-D ) That the cruise is happening during Lent didn't register til I saw this article. drat. ahh, well, my boring FB photos will have to suffice til the next cruise ---perhaps during Ordinary time ?? ;-D

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  27. "Now, I don't know about the rest of you kids, but when I go on a retreat, I go on a retreat. When I go on a cruise, I go on a cruise ... Even when Christ Himself evaded the crowds for solitude, he fled to the desert, not an oasis."

    man with black hat: Every Matter Under Heaven

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    1. I don’t know about you, but I don’t care what David Alexander thinks about just about anything.

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