Bishop Tissier de Mallerais confirms: Rome-SSPX: With the Pope's own signature: Vatican II and the post-conciliar Magisterium must be accepted in full

Update: Vatican Insider Mistake, reported and clarifying at Rorate Caeli.

A transcript of a conference given by the French bishop of the Society of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX), Bp. Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, in the priory of Saint L.M.G. de Montfort (Maine-et-Loire, France), on September 16, 2012, was made public by French forum Un évêque s'est levé. The main excerpts, according to the available transcript, dealing with the Rome-SSPX negotiations are the following:

A transcript of a conference given by the French bishop of the Society of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX), Bp. Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, in the priory of Saint L.M.G. de Montfort (Maine-et-Loire, France), on September 16, 2012, was made public by French forum Un évêque s'est levé. The main excerpts, according to the available transcript, dealing with the Rome-SSPX negotiations are the following:

"[T]he agreement considered in 2011-2012 lasted for six months, it has not been blessed by the Blessed Virgin. (We had prayed rosary after rosary, and we keep doing that, that is very good.) But the Blessed Virgin was clearly not behind this idea. She did not walk this path, because on June 30 (it's a secret that I reveal to you, but it will be made public), on June 30, 2012, the Pope wrote with his own hand a letter to our Superior General, Bp. [Bernard] Fellay, signed personally: 'I confirm to you in fact [that], in order [for you] to be truly reintegrated into the Church [Tissier: let us move beyond this expression], it is necessary to truly accept the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar Magisterium."

It is, as a matter of principle, a stopping point, because we could not accept it anyway; we would not sign it anyway. One can enter into details, because the Council is so vast one can find good things in it, but this is not the essence of the Council."

"Evidently, we could not sign it. Because we are required to sign it, the agreements do not move forward. I would say that [if] on this point there is no agreement, there will be no agreement.

"This is all I can tell you, I do not think Rome will let us go. The Modernist Rome will come close to us [once again], it is inevitable. They are determined, they are persistent, they want to lead us to the Council, therefore pray. Personally, I would never sign things like that, that is clear."

"...[T]he entire phrase 'the Holy Father does not intend to leave aside an indispensable condition' [in the Secretariat of State's draft] was cancelled by Benedict XVI and replaced with, [in his own handwriting], 'For a future recognition of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, the full acknowledgment of the Second Vatican Council and of the Magisterium of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and of the same Benedict XVI is an indispensable condition."

It is unclear if this same content was merely mentioned by Pope Benedict XVI with a reference to the 2009 note in the June 30, 2012, letter mentioned by Tissier de Mallerais, or if it the 2012 letter has more precise demands on the matter.

[French forum content also reported by Andrea Tornielli for La Stampa - in Italian]

 Originally posted at: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/important-with-popes-own-signature.html

 Read the remainder at Catholic Family News...

Bishop Williamson Will Be Expelled

The only conceivable result of the Vatican negotiations with the Society of St. Pius X consists in that Rome in the future will have two Societies to confront.

Bischof Williamson bei der Distriktswallfahrt
der Deutschen nach Fulda, 2006 

(kreuz.net) Society Bishop Richard Williamson (72) will be shut out of the Society of St. Pius X.

This was learned by kreuz.net and reported recently.

A Hot Potato

The last cause for the exclusion was an unauthorized Confirmation by the Bishop in South  America in the past August.

Already for years, the General Superior of the Society, Bishop Benard Fellay, in vain, had put a muzzle on Msgr Williamson.

So also it was expected of him that he would cease his weekly e-mail commentary.  But the Bishop continued to publish.

Another Society?

It is yet to be seen that the Bishop will found another Society with other exiled priests.

Then it may be only a question of time, till he will ordain Bishops.

It is still in question, if he has the necessary organizational talent and energy to build a new structure.

Besides it passes as egocentric.

In view of the expected scenario many observers regard the shutting out Bishop Williamson as a fatal mistake.

Link to original...kreuz.net....

Breaking: Expect More Speculation About No Deal with Rome

Edit: the hostility of Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Muller has been somewhat blunted the last time he spoke. Now that the smoke has cleared, Bishop Fellay continues to press on the issue of +Muller's insupportable assertion that Vatican II is "infallible" in all of its contents. Here is the article from Catholic Family News.

From Father Couture:
"A deal with modernist Rome?" 

“Bishop Fellay said recently, in many public conferences in Australia, that nothing new would happen for the SSPX under the present pope. And if we consider the appointment last June of the German Archbishop Müller at the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – he considers Vatican II as infallible - the present situation is going to continue as it is for many more years.”

- From “An Appeal to our Korean Faithful” - Sept 8. 2012
(From Father Daniel Couture, SSPX – District Superior of Asia)

Taken from SSPX Asia webpage: http://www.sspxasia.com/

See PDF links below:

An Appeal to the Korean Faithful from Fr Couture

Letter from Bishop Tissier de Mallerais to the faithful of Korea Sept. 8, 2012
•  actual fax letter •  typed letter 

From Bishop Tissier de Mallerais about a recent interview with Fr. Chazal 
•  – Important clarification   actual fax letter •  typed letter 

Note: These links were posted today (Sept. 8) on the SSPX Asia website. What is of special interest is the publication of the letters wherein Bishop Tissier de Mallerais openly says he opposes under the present circumstances an accord with today's Vatican, that Father Coutre uses the term "Modernist Rome", and that he quotes Bishop Fellay saying nothing new [in the way of an accord] will happen for the SSPX under Benedict XVI. And please note, this is no rumor, but comes from the official website of the SSPX in Asia. - JV

Also from Father Couture's letter:
"1. Our Holy Faith 
"We profess as we have always done to maintain the Catholic Faith in line with the famous Declaration of Archbishop Lefebvre, in 1974:

"'We hold firmly with all our heart and with all our mind to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic Faith and of the traditions necessary to the maintenance of this
faith, to the eternal Rome, mistress of wisdom and truth. We refuse on the other hand, and have always refused, to follow the Rome of Neo-Modernist and Neo-Protestant tendencies, which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council, and after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it. …'

"This is what we are, and, by the grace of God, what we will remain."




- Catholic Family News is a monthly print journal (the vast majority of which is in print only, not on line). Click here to subscribe

Bishop Fellay Will Miss Fulda Pilgrimage this Year

The General Superior of the Society of St. Pius X can't come to the most important yearly event of the German District.  Was he expected in the Vatican?

(kreuz.net, Fulda)  Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Pristly Society of St. Pius X was expected to participate in this year's Fulda pilgrimage of the German district.

This was reported by the site 'pius.info'.  The yearly pilgrimage of the German District has taken place nine times.

This year it is being held under the motto, "The Church -- our joy, our love, our pride".

The pilgrimage will renew the consecration of Germany to the Mother of God.

Is he being drawn to Rome?

Msgr Fellay has refused by reason of "other important obligations".

It is unclear which short term meeting is more important than the most important annual event of the German District.

The Bishop Celebrates in the Hotel

Instead of the General Superior, the French Society Bishop Tissier de Mallerais will appear instead.

He has proven himself an opponent of a diplomatic solution being reached without clarification of the dogmatic questions.

Msgr. De Mallerais is to celebrate the Mass in the large feast hall of the Orangerie in Fulda.

The celebration in a Fulda church would clearly not be allowed by the Old Liberal Bishop Heinz Josef Algermissen.

Link to kreuz.net...

Is Cardinal Kurt Koch Intentionally Leading People Into Error?

The Joker- President of the Office for Unity has compared the Society of St. Pius X with Martin Luther -- the Church Father of the Conciliar Church -- of all things.

Kardinal Kurt Koch
© +ecumenix, Flickr, CC

(kreuz.net)  There is "not a hermeneutic of pure continuity" in the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council by the Pope.

This oft repeated expression was made by the Old Liberal curial Cardinal Kurt Koch -- who is the President of the Pontifical Council for Unity -- to the German 'Katholischen Nachrichtenagentur'.

Empty Mist Instead of Catholic Doctrine


An interpretation of the "hermeneutic of pure continuity" would apparently be a substitution by the Traditionalists -- maundered the Cardinal.

In reality the Old Believers have maintained that the Pastoral Council represents a break with the Doctrine of the Church.

The Cardinal made a lot of mist:  The Pope sees "a connection of renewal and continuity in the sense that the Council desired and needed a renewal of the Church but not a new Church."

Wants a Class of a Class

Cardinal Koch styled the documents of the Pastoral Council with the same comb, although they arranged are in four large Constitutions, nine decrees and three statutes.

On may -- apparently a "purely formal" -- distinction between the documents.

In any case the Cardinal fabricated then "a problem, as the Council of Trent (1545-1563) had only enacted decrees and no constitutions."

What the Cardinal didn't say:  The Council of Trent formulated "anathemas",  which condemned errors in sentences as clear as glass.

Dogmatically Unbinding


At the Pastoral Council Cardinal Koch saw "hardly any difference" in the "binding with regard to its content".

That means: the Pastoral Council  itself had imputed a lower dogmatic value binding character.

He attempted to enhance the Decree on Ecumenism that it apparently has its dogmatic formulations in the non-dogmatic Constitution of the Church.

The Ecumenism-Cardinal Insults the Protestants


As far as the reconciliation of the Society of St. Pius X, Cardinal Koch sees difficulties in that they see errors in the Pastoral Council.

"That Councils can also contain errors, is in any case an error which goes back to Martin Luther"  -- said the Cardinal critically on the fabrications of the Protestants.

The Old Believers must "really ask, where they actually stand" themselves -- as he leveled a broadside against the inventor of Protestantism.

Actually Cardinal Koch shows himself as more papal than the Pope.

Because the Pastoral Council did not avail itself of the infallibility of a dogmatic Council -- which Luther denied.

Take Care, Cardinal Koch


The Lefebrist website 'pius.info' posed the question today, "if the Cardinal is leading people with intention into error".

The hapless Cardinal needs remedial Catechism:  A Council is infallible, when it defines a doctrine of the Faith.

This is the point that Martin Luther contested.

On the contrary the Church has never insisted that "everything, which is within the text of a Council is infallible."

Dogmatized the Pastoral Council After the Fact


The Pastoral Council understands itself as a Pastoral Council.

For that reason it could "not raise the claim of binding character."

The founder of the Society, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (+1991),  had frequently pointed out that one said during the Council , that it wasn't necessary to express with dogmatic precision what would merely be treated as a Pastoral Council.

Actually:  "After the Council then one would begin to make the texts dogmatic, as Cardinal Koch had done."

The Conciliar Church is a Divided Kingdom


Cardinal Koch also contradicted a statement by Cardinal Walter Brandmueller in the past May.

The later attested that the Conciliar documents over inter-religious dialog and apparent religious freedom had  no "dogmatically binding content".

Link to kreuz.net...

It's official, there's still been no answer received by the Vatican.

Edit: the usual well-wishers wish it were otherwise, but here it is.  The decision still hangs in the balance.


Vatican. [kreuz.net] The Society of St. Pius X has still not delivered an answer to the last edition of the Dogmatic Preamble.  This was spread around in a report from Andrea Tornielli yesterday, and just confirmed by the speaker of the Vatican Press Office, Father Federico Lombardi, for journalists.

The SSPX Calls "Indispensable" Conditions -- Rome Sees Willingness to Talk

(Vatican/Menzigen)  After Msgr Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X received a newly revised "Doctrinal Preamble" on June 13th for signing, the reconciliation talks between Rome and Econe have been at a standstill.  Some on both sides have spoken already of a collapse of the talks.  A less than friendly exchang also took place between the Society and the new Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and the Faith.

The General Chapter of the Society at the beginning of July ended with a strengthening of the General Superior, who attempted, to strengthen the unity of the Society.  Regarding the discussions with Rome there was nothing concrete to convey.  This is a sign that the talks have still not collapsed.  It is the Society founded by Marcel Lefebvre in 1970 to take its turn to address the "Preamble" of June 13th from Rome.  Such a response has not yet been received by the Vatican.

Curial Archbishop Mueller, the new guardian of the Faith of the Catholic Church is on vacation for the next few weeks.  The same applies to the curial Archbishop de Noia appointed to be responsible for the SSPX as the Secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.  Bishop FEllay could therefore wait for his answer yet.  In August, not much of consequences happens in the Vatican often.  Basically, the Roman side seems to have no intention of excercising pressure for its part.

From the context of the CDF it means that the new edition of the Preamble of Pope Benedict XVI in May during the general assembly of the CDF would be sanctioned.  At the same time the contention has been contradicted, in the edition of the Preamble which Cardinal Levada gave the Society on June 13 which corresponded significantly to that of 2011 and put for that reason a step backward, because the alternate proposals and desires of the Society had not been taken into account.

Two points of the Preamble were the desire of the Pope or the Prefect of the CDF were included again in the Preamble.  The first point touched on the post-Conciliar form of the Roman Rite, the Novus Ordo.  Rome expected that the SSPX not only recognize the validity of the New Mass, but also its legitimacy.  That does not mean that the liturgical abuses may not be criticized, and those of translation may not be discussed.

The second point touched on the Second Vatican Council.  In the Vatican there is strong resistance against the presentiment that the Conciliar documents are even only described as being "erroneous" in parts.  For that reason the Society is expected to distinguish  between the Conciliar documents and their interpretation, and recognize, that the Magisterium may not be judged by any other authority, also not the Society.

It drives the issue, to put it bluntly, where the healthy Catholic way is between the idea that the Second Vatican Council was a kind of "super Council" or even a "super dogma", although it itself made no such claim, and the idea that the SSPX gets the role of a "super Magisterium" to which would be appended the Church's Magisterium.

"The aim of dialogue is to overcome the difficulties in the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council, but we can not negotiate the revealed Faith, that is impossible.  An Ecumenical Council, according to the Catholic Faith is always the highest Magisterium of the Church, "Said the new Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and the Faith in an EWTN interview.  Specifically, he added: "The claim that the authentic teachings of the Second Vatican Council can be in contradiction to the Tradition of the Church is wrong."

While you're waiting in Rome for the response of Bishop Fellay, the internal Society circulars are finding a lot of attention, which -- was immediately published by Internet leakers -- once more.  Father Christian Thouvenot, the Secretary of the Superior General released the proceedings of the General Council together. It was determined that the three conditions as the "sine qua non" of the agreement made reconciliation with Rome impossible.  The formulations, such as the one found in Rome, leave room for negotiation.  Among other things, the claims will be affirmed, that the Society's priests will only celebrate the classical form of the Roman Rite, but said nothing about the legality of the ordinary form of the Roman Rite.

The demand for free and public criticism of the "error or the innovations of modernism, liberalism, the Second Vatican Council and its consequences", could ultimately be read less harshly than it might seem at first glance.  "Everything will depend on the response sent to Rome by Msgr Fellay", like the Vatican, as Vaticanist Andrea Tornielli is heard to be continuously repeated these days.


The question of exempt status of the SSPX, to be free from the influence of Diocesan Bishops, the concession to have a bishop as head of the Society and other questions are held in Rome as "solved".

Text: Giuseppe Nardi 
Image: Le Barroux


Link to original...katholisches...

Father Pfluger Sees Novus Ordo Being Abolished in 20 Years

Edit: there were some interesting elements regarding Father Pfluger's April 29th lecture to 'Spes Unica', including the important point that the Holy Father has accepted the preamble as it is written, including the Society's right to dialog about controversial points in the Vatican Council.

It seems to be also that this has been picked up by Cardinal Brandmuller, who delivered some covering fire for the SSPX recently when he said that the two documents are not binding.

"Our Problem is the Bishops"

The first assistant of the Society of St. Pius X confirms:  "We know that the Pope is agreed to the new form of the Dogmatic Preamble."

Father Pfluger's Lecture on unity at
‘Actio Spes Unica’.
© pius.info

(kreuz.net, Hattersheim)  The Bishops deal with the Society of St. Pius X as if they were still excommunicated.

The first assistant of the Society, Father Niklaus Pfluger, said this in a two hour lecture in the 25,700 population city of Hattersheim near Frankfurt am Main.

The host for the event was 'Actio Spes Unica', an organization very closely bound too the Society.

The break is obvious

Father explained himself about the negotiations with the Vatican.

At the end of the Dogmatic discussions it had been clear that there was no theological agreement.

The theologians of the Society had  depicted a break in the Church before and after the Council.

Because the Pope says it's so


The Vatican theologians had want to  demonstrate continuity.

They explained that the Second Vatican Council had ostensibly announced the enduring teaching of the Church.

There were new teachings.

It was established with the fact that the Pope says it's so.

At the same time the Vatican theologians had admitted the ecclesiastical decline, the abuses, errors and scandals of the Conciliar Church.

But they would not clearly admit to Father Pfluger that the Pastoral Council was the cause for this.

No time lost with the doctrine of the faith


Father Pfluger mentioned the September Meeting of the General Council of the Sciety with the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith, William Cardinal Levada.

There had been not a word lost about the Dogmatic Discussions.

The Prince of the Church simply handed the text of the Dogmatic Preamble and proposed a Personal Prelature as the future legal form f the Society.

Much is in disarray

The second part of the discussion dealt with the Church crisis -- among other things in Germany.

The Congregation sees, "that much is in disarray."

That was discussed  -- said Father Pfluger -- also in a spontaneous discussion with the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith, Archbishop Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer (68)..

The Archbishop openly said: "Our problem for the last twenty years are the Bishops, the theologians and the Universities."

The Vatican doesn't speak with one voice

Father Pfluger mentioned the document to the Congregation from the middle of March.

In that a positive answer was expected from the Society and in the opposite case threatened with excommunication.

In any case, in the middle of March Bishop Bernard Fellay received a second dispatch: "You must not take that letter seriously."

The Pope wants a solution and is prepared to be gracious.

"We need the Societey"

Father Pfluger cited a Cardinal, who regarding the breakdown in the Council said to Bishop Fellay: "We need you".

For Father, that is one possible explanation why the Pope wants to achieve  the reconciliation, even though practically all of the Bishops are against him.

It is after forty years for the Society a new situation, that a Pope offers a regularization almost without any concessions on the side of the Society.

In the light of Tradition


Father Pfluger mentioned the Dogmatic Preamble which the Society had reworked for the middle of April .

The Pius text is shorter and more precisely formulated than the original edition by the CDF.

The Society had enjoined in the text that the Pastoral Council and the subsequent Magisterium be discussed.

The Pope is in Agreement

Father let some information slip through.

One knows, that the Pope is in agreement with the Society's version of the Preamble.

The fact is only to be returned to the CDF, in order too follow normal channels.

Pope Under Pressure


Father stressed that "very many" in the CDF and inn the Vatican do not want a positive solution for the Society.

There is "pressure" being exercised against the Pope.

As an example, the clergyman described the Old Liberal President of the Pontifical Council for Unity, Cardinal Kurt Koch.

He has already ruined his own Diocese of Basel as Basel:  "They don't come more modern than he, really."

When he became a Roman Cardinal, he started praising the Old Mass.

With 'kreuz.net' it's easier

Father Pfluger mentioned his other crises in the Church during his lecture -- for example the time when there were three Popes simultaneously.

There was no internet or television then, in order too find out, who the real Pope was.

In the current crisis it's easier to inform yourself.  "Now we can go on 'kreuz.net' and look at what Father Andreas Steins is saying, what says Father Franz Schmidberger."

In twenty years the Novus Ordo will be gone

Father Pfluger ventured the understanding that the Pope is still not able to abolish the New Mass.

At the present all priests and Bishops celebrate this rite.


But: "In twenty years, then the Pope will do it."

The Society and Rome on Verge of Agreement

Edit: some people will remember that we predicted this long ago. It remains to be seen how this will work itself out. Some, who are not as good-willed, think this agreement will mean an end to the Society's significance in the media. Seeing as the Society is one of the most healthy societies in the Church today, I can't imagine seeing it shrink in importance, I can only imagine it growing stronger as its seminaries grow and it continues to build new schools, while unhealthy societies continue to retreat and dwindle into insignificance.


This is Rorate's translation of the usual article from Liberal Le Figaro:



Rome and Écône on the verge of reaching an agreement


by Jean-Marie Guénois


The signing of a document establishing the relations between the Holy See and the disciples of Abp. Lefebvre is a matter of days.http://www.blogger.com/img/blank.gif

Officially, the Vatican awaits the response of Bp. Bernard Fellay, the chief of the Lefebvrists. As soon as it is received in Rome - "it is a matter of days, and no longer of weeks", - it will be immediately examined. If it conforms to expectations, the Holy See will very quickly announce a historic agreement with this group of faithful, known under the name of "integrists".

But unofficially, and with the greatest discretion, emissaries have worked, from both sides, to "reach an agreement". In the past few weeks, the final adjustments have been concluded between Rome and Écône in order to better respond to the demands of "clarifications" asked for by the Vatican last March 16.

Link to Rorate...

SSPX Germany: Letter Holds Out "Justifiable Hope" for Reconciliation

Reading from the pulpit of all the Churches and Chapels of the German District of the Society of St. Pius X. As translated from District website:

Dear Faithful,

On the 16th of March Cardinal Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and the Faith, presented a letter with clarifications in Rome, to the General Superior of the Society, Bishop Fellay, in which we will be called upon, to give a final affirmation of the Doctrinal Preamble of September 14th, as it has happened till now.

The final deadline for an answer is going to be April 15th, 2012. Certainly you have surely already learned this partly in the media. We are therefore arriving at a decisive point.

If the letter also has struck an unpleasant [unangenehmen] tone, yet it indeed gives justifiable hopes for a peaceful solution. In case this situations happens, it would strengthen all of the important protective powers in the Church; in the other case, these would be significantly weakened and demoralized. Therefore, what is uppermost is not our Society, rather the health of the entire Church.

For this reason we ask the fervent, persistent and beseeching prayers from all of our faithful and all Catholics, so that God, through the salvific sufferings of His only begotten son, leads His Church from Her crisis, and gives her in the holy resurrection of Jesus new life, new strength and blooming.

Stuttgart, 22 March 2012

Father Franz Schmidberger, District Superior

SSPX: A Spectacular Reading from the Pulpit

Bishop Fellay and Msgr Pozzo

© Piusbruderschaft

 Edit:  A special announcement is to take place in Germany about the Preamble which will contain new information.  The day will also be the anniversary of the death of the Society's former superior, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who died 21 years ago in 1991.

Tomorrow a public statement will be read from the pulpit in the Priories of the German District of the Society of St. Piux X regarding the state of negotiations with Rome.

(kreu.net)  Today the website of the District of the Society of St. Pius X has produced a chronology of the talks with Rome.

The chronicle is an overview of a span of time from the Second Vatican Council to today.

It maintains that the Pastoral Council is supposed to have decided upon a "modernization of the Catholic Church".

For that reason the "Phalanx of the progressives" are supposed to have held sway against the "conservative Conciliar Fathers".

A Sensational Success

The Society of St. Pius X was founded on 1 November 1970 by Bishop François Charrière († 1976) of Freiburg.

The first superior was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (+1991).  He began with four seminarians.

The Pope Has Never Abrogated the Society  


The society was abrogated a year later by the modernistic French Bishops.

The chronicle comments:  "Now it states clearly in canon law, that an ecclesiastical society, which has been legitimately erected canonically, can only be abrogated by the Pope himself."

Indeed:  "Until the present day, such a Papal abrogation has not taken place."

The Media Bosses Work With False Reports

The chronicle went in detail into the talks between the Society and the Vatican:

 "Because of a sermon by the General Superior, Bishop Fellay on the 2nd of February in Winona, there were several media outlets in Germany which premptively described the talks as "broken down"."

The chronicle  denies this:  "Bishop Fellay broached the issue not of the fundamental relation to Rome, rather of the question, as to how the "Doctrinal Preamble" should be evaluated."


An Answer to an Answer?

As a last event, the chronicle lists the meeting of Msgr Fellay with the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith on the 16th of March.

At this even the Prefect explained in a written answer, that the offer of the Society is not sufficient to resolve the dogmatic problems.

On the morning -- of the 25th of March --  a further step will be announced.

"In Germany a word from the pulpit will be read to the faithful in relation to the talks with Rome."


Link to kreuz.net....

Link topiusbruderschaft.de...

Ultra-Liberal Cardinal Ricard Rejects SSPX: What Will Pope Say?

Edit: A very Liberal French Cardinal Ricard is making irresponsible statements for the French Press about the incompatibility of the SSPX with Rome. Of course, he refers to the Society with a haughtiness which puts his objectivity and judiciousness in doubt. In any event, it was understood that the CDF had already rejected the SSPX response and forwarded it on to the Holy Father anyway, some people just can't help themselves. The last weeks have also seen Vaticanistas and others in the European press attempting to poison the well with respect to this decisions. Whatever Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard says, it's not his decision, it's the Holy Father's to make.

After reading Cardinal Ricard's remarks complaining that the Society doesn't accept "evolution", I have to ask which Council it is that he was discussing while on the panel with his Episcopal colleagues, +Müller, +Koch, +Kasper and +Schönborn. Vatican II said far less on evolution than it did on "respect for other denominations and religions". It brings to mind a familiar question, "Just which Vatican Council do you wish us to adhere, my Lord?"

We picked up the following from the blog Chiesa e post concilia via Messa in Latino, and this is a google x-late with some brushing up:

Cardinal Ricard confirms the disagreement of Rome with the "integristes".

The French Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, Friday, February 17, said: is there an "acknowledgment" of the disagreement between the Catholic Church and the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, because they insist on rejecting "big statements" of the council Vatican II. 

 "We are in a situation where there is an 'acknowledgment' of the disagreement, not only sull'interpetazione [ambiguous] passages of text on the council but the council itself and the Magisterium (....) Popes on a number of "large claims Council": This was the opinion expressed by the Bishop of Bordeaux, present in Rome for the Consistory in which they will have created 22 new Cardinals. In September, the Holy See had made ​​a gesture to the Priestly Fraternity, separated from Rome since 1988. The proposed acceptance as part of a "preamble" of "principles" ahead of his return into communion with the Catholic Church. But since then, the Fraternity founded by Mons. Marcel Lefebvre did not accept the offer, by providing many documents in the Vatican last January, while his superior, Mgr. Bernard Fellay, and other officials publicly expressed their strong dissatisfaction. [Actually, it was quite mild and docile, certainly not like many French Bishops who steadfastly refuse to obey the Holy Father in their own right.]

 Bishop Fellay, after February, had insisted that a reintegration might take effect only if their resolute rejection of the Council had been accepted by Rome. The Second Vatican Council has recognized religious freedom, respect for other Christian denominations and other religions, and evolution which is catastrophic in the eyes of Lefebvrians. This waste "is not acceptable," he insisitito Mgr. Ricard, who attended the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, in charge of examining the integralist dossier.  "THE POPE AND 'COME TO THE FULLEST" "The Pope has attempted at the most, has done much to get closer, to accept a number of preconditions . But now is the time when he can not refuse to accept, that not just the Council but which becomes apparent rejection of the teaching of successive popes from John XXIII to Benedict XVI, the Catechism of the Church and the Code of Canon Law . Because this code and this Catechism "is the implementation of the right teaching and catechesis of the Council," he said, "Rome will say to them, the door remains open, but this time it is you need to take a step forward and riprendiate contacts," said the French cardinal.

Vatican Talks with SSPX: Recylcing Tornielli's False Report of Last Week

(Vatikan/Econe)Some people can't help themselves. The supplement Christ und Welt(ex Rheinischer Merkur)the weekly paper of Die Zeit reported in today's edition, that "according to the estimate" of the Italian Vaticanista Andrea Tornielli, the negotiations between the Society of St. Pius X and the Holy See have been a "failure". The Catholic news agency KNA has distributed the information further. Even so it is being assumed by countless worldwide Catholic media.

In fact, it is just the (false) message that Alessandro Speciale spread last week on the 3rd of February which appeared on the same day as Tornielli's report. Speciale stated that the Superior General of the SSPX, Bishop Bernard Fellay had declared the talks a failure. Nothing of the kind was done.

Instead, it was the same day that Speciale had already spread his message in the morning that a meeting between Pope Benedict and Cardinal Levada took place instead, the Prefect o fthe Congregation who led the negotiations with the SSPX. The them of the meeting were the discussions with Econe. The Pope himself discussed the current status with Cardinal Levada and also what the next steps of the Holy See will be. It is in fact the Vatican's turn to answer the SSPX.

A failure of the talks is not excluded, however, any more than there being an agreement between Rome and Econe. What Speciale and others more widely published, was targeted at disruption and torpedoing the talks, an attempt to influence from the outside, which makes the father of this wish easy to surmise. The report from the Christiches Welt and Tornielli's analysis corresponded to the 3 February 2012 (this time only in German). Since then nothing more in Italy has been published on the subject, not even in his own blog. The question of whether or not there has been an agreement or a failure of the talks between Rome and Econe is still open.

Die Zeit's editorial appears to appeal to thoughts which appeal to the failure of the talks, which have newly warmed themselves with the report of last week. That parts of the Catholic Church are interested in the failure of the discussions was known then. The dissemination of these premature negative reports serve to sketch a map, of whom is attaching themselves to this kind of wishful thinking. This is thoroughly decisive for observers of the Catholic Church. It is at the present time, nothing more and nothing less.

Link to katholisches...

No "Non Possumus" -- Attempt to Sidetrack the Talks of the SSPX with Rome

Edit: looking at the German media figures like Jeff Mirus, Armin Schwibach, or the Italian Vaticanista, Alessandro Speciale, you can see that there's a reflexive desire to inaccurately portray Bishop Fellay's words.
(Rome/Econe) On 3. Februar 2012 Cardinal William Levada met with the Pope. The Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and Faith and reported to the Pope about the situation with the negotiations between the Holy See and the Society of St. Pius X. Primarily, it focused on the second response of the Society to the "Doctrinal Preamble". Since then, the Vatican is on the train. The congregation, led by Cardinal Levada and examined the response to the Pope in order to determine the next steps by the Holy See. The outcome of the audience is not known.

The whole day was accompanied by a media barrage. Not for the first time did it seem to some that the failure of the talks was not going fast enough. A new wave in talking up this failure was accompanied as a sort of background music for the conversation yesterday in the Vatican.

The opening was taken up by Alessandro Speciale and unchecked by other journalists, including Vaticanistas. In the German speaking zone, Armin Schwibach dashed forth with the sensational headline, "Bishop Fellay: possumus Non!" Thus, the Superior General of the SSPX, Bishop Bernard Fellay, was supposed to have declared in a sermon at the seminary of the Society in Winona in the United States when he actually said yesterday that it is possible for the Society to accept the preamble. He did so, according to Speciale, which provoked a domino effect Schwibach and many others, a "non possumus" announced.

It had created the impression that the Fraternity's turn on the negotiations with Rome had made a definitive stand. The exact opposite is the case. The Holy See's turn and for this reason was held yesterday behind closed doors in the Vatican meeting between Pope Benedict XVI. and Cardinal Levada instead. For this reason alone was the Superior General of SSPX had no reason to trumpet just the day before a categorical "nyet" to the world. The domination of small diplomatic Bishop Fellay has multiplication table since the beginning of the talks with Rome, or rather, since he received from Pope Benedict XVI. In the summer of 2005 provided sufficient proof, as that he would make no such inappropriate move while he waits for the response of the other side.

So the day was at least in the sense of the media, had "run" its course. The uncritical dissemination of a false report says especially a lot about the wishful thinking of some journalists. [Jeff Mirus] In this case, the question arises as to the Cui bono. It has long been known that a possible and desired agreement by Pope Benedict XVI between the Holy See and the SSPX of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre has many opponents, on both sides.

In Italy, fought over the news. The starting point is for all the alleged "refusal" Msgr Fellays in Winona. However, it is a hoax in the classical sense, as revealed Rorate Coeli. Monsignor Fellays never made the statement attributed to him, never, not in Winona, and not elsewhere. In his homily, the Superior General of the Society briefly outlined the current progress of the negotiations with Rome and stated here that the "preamble", as on 14 September Preamble, the Brotherhood, would not be accepted. It has long been known and does not correspond to general rejection, but is part of the negotiations. The Vatican admitted to the Brotherhood with delivery right to propose amendments to express their wishes to propose more appropriate formulations. This option is exercised by the Society which is waiting their turn for the reaction of Rome, which the last topic of conversation between Benedict XVI. and Cardinal Levada.

You will therefore need to wait a little longer, until Rome makes its answer to the SSPX known what the result of the talks have been, as some have rejoiced too early, intending to speak and write you a failure cause.
Link to original...

Holy Father and Cardinal Levada Deliberate Over Fate of SSPX

Cardinal Levada is with Pope Benedict XVI are a meeting.


Vatican City (www.kath.net/ KNA) Pope Benedict XVI. is publicly in meetings with Cardinal Levada. The Pope invited the Prefect of the Congregation of Doctrine and the Faith to an audience on Friday, as the Vatican considers further steps. The main part of the discussion may have been to cover the report of his administration of the US Cardinals in their plenary meeting, at which will also be discussed the dialog with the Society of St. Pius X.

At the yearly plenary conference of the CDF from the 24th to the 27th of January the most recent answer of the Society to the "Doctrinal Preamble" of the Vatican was considered as part of the program. In this clarification which was formed on the 14th September 2011 are the result of an eighteen month long discussion of principes for the possible reunification with the Priestly Society of St. Pius X. The discussion afterward relates to the second and first answer which both require a clear adherence of Tradition to the Church's Magisterium and to the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965)
Link to original.... .

Bishops to +Fellay: "Toss the Council to the Side, Forget it!"

Bishop Fellay at Candlemass 

Edit: Rorate reports that Italian commentators are having trouble understanding what Bishop Fellay is saying.  Actually, he's been overwhelmingly positive and is finding a tremendous amount of support from REAL Vatican Insiders and even Bishops.

Bishop Fellay cited the thesis of one of his Vatican collaborators.  This one came to the conclusion that the Pastoral Council has the doctrinal authority of a sermon from the 1960s.

(Kreuz.net) The Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X is fighting "with and against Rome" at the same time.

That said, the Superior General of the Fraternity, Bishop Bernard Fellay, the Feast of Canlemas, during a Sermon in the 30,000 population city of Winona in Minnesota.

An audio of the sermon is posted on the Seminary's website.

It would be Better Outside


There have been many attempts within the Conciliar Church to get rid of the Society -- explained Bishop Fellay.

According his information, it may be better for the Society to remain "outside".

Because: Then they would receive better treatment from the Church.

As an example, the Bishop recalled how friendly the Church is for the Godless protestants, who come to the Conciliar Church's door and find it opened.

Those are Dogmas

The main problem is identified by Msgr. Fellay "in the Magisterium".

Rome maintains that the past Magisterium can be differentiated from.

Msgr Fellay counters: "The truth is not dependent of the time. Reality is above it."

What was once defined is binding for all time: "These are dogmas."

Very Accomodating

The Society has received an "invitation" for canonical regularization of their situation -- said Msgr Fellay.

The Vatican has been very accomodating "It met all of our requirements."

Actually, for Msgr. Fellay, the difficulties are on the level of the Magisterium. Even here the Roman proposals went "far -- very far."

The Society must accept that the ambiguous points in the Second Vatican Council -- such as ecumenism and religious freedom -- must be understood in accordance with Catholic doctrine.

Msgr. Fellay is "astonishingly" positive.

The application makes problems

Msgr. Fellay sees problems in the implementation of these instructions.

Then that led to that the Society could not accept the offer.

As an example for the application of those principles from Rome are ecumenism and religious freedom.

Thsi should be understood in terms of the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church'.

But it is precisely this understanding which the Society has criticized -- said Msgr. Fellay.

A Maximum to Confusion

Rome recognized that there may be a break between the new and old doctrine.

Therefore that the old teachings on ecumenism and religious freedom would be maintained anyway.

On the contrary, the Society couldn't swallow that.

For Bishop Fellay this point reached a maximum of confusion.

That was the reason why the reconciliation could not be signed.
>
The Roman conclusion, where a new teaching could automatically correspond to the ancient doctrine, could not be agreed to.

Without Ecumenism and Without Religious Freedom

Bishop Fellay stressed that in the Vatican there is a true desire to accept the Society.

The Soceity is for its side ready for reconciliation:

"If you accept us, as we are, without changes, without making us duty bound, to accept ecumenism and religious freedom, then we are ready."

Even Ignore the Pastoral Council?

Bishop Fellay suggested that the situation in ten years looks quite different.

Then the old liberal Conciliar generation will be gone.

Several bishops had said the Society, you take the Pastoral Council far too seriously. Their advice: "Toss the Council on the side forget it!"

But Msgr. Fellay notes that the Council "because of the damage that it has caused," is to be taken seriously.

Regarding the Dogmatic authority of the Pastoral Council, he cites the Roman doctoral thesis of an unnamed Vatican employee.

He came to the conclusion that the Pastoral Council possesses the same authority as a sermon from the 1960s.

Unhappy progressives

Mons. Fellay ventured no predictions about the future of the Society or the Church.

He could only promise that the Church is in a Conciliar winter with no new beautiful springtime.

But one thing he knows, "that progressives are not happy."

Link to kreuz.net...

Photo: © Piusbruderschaft

CDF Will Deliberate Starting Tuesday On SSPX

Edit: Isn't the presence of the Vienna Cardinal at these deliberations stretching credulity a little much?


Society of St. Pius X is having its answer to the Vatican for reconciliation looked over.

 Rome (kath.net/KAP)The Vatican Congregation for Doctrine and the Faith is beginning its plenary meeting in the Vatican.  The plenum will be led by the Prefect of the Congregation, Cardinal William Levada.  The meeting of the Congregation for Doctrine and the Faith will take place with Cardinals Kurt Koch and Kasper as Ecumenical experts as well as Vienna's Christoph Schönborn among the three German speaking Cardinals.  Even the  64 year old Regensburg Bishop Gerhard Müller is a member and is listed as one of the three favorites to succeed Cardinnal Levada after his foreseen retirement in April.

One of the themes of the plenary meeting is the addressing of the Society's answer to the Doctrinal Preamble.  The CDF is standing on a historical decision.  In schism from Rome since 1988 [sic] the Society has made its answer to the Levada Congregation, accompanying it with qualifications for reconciliation.

Between October 2009 and April 2011 three experts of the Vatican Commission "Ecclesia Dei" had and the Society of St. Pius X sounded out differences in existing teaching and arranged for the possibility of unification in eight meetings.  In the middle were the different positions on the Second Vatican Council and its statements on Ecumenism, Religious Freedom and Interrelgious Dialogue.

At the conclusion Cardinal Levada reached out in last September to the Superior of the Society, Bernard Fellay, with a "Doctrinal Preamble".  It contained a communique "some principles and criteria for interpretation of Catholic doctrine, which are necessary, in order to guarantee the true teaching office of the Church."

Till then the Preamble has been neither published, nor has the content of the Society's letter.  Clearly the society desires textual alterations, it has been maintained in well-informed circles.  New negotiations over the content of the clarification had been categorically ruled out by the Vatican. [?]

New negotiations or final break?

The really decisive question, whether the requested alterations by the Society are as changes in the subject or will merely be restatements.  In the first case the Roman answer would probably mean a final break.  Should in any case the majority in the CDF be prepared, to allow additional readjudication,  then this would mean a new round of negotiations.

The middle way would be to freeze the current situation.  The CDF would determine any lingering points of dissent and next declare any present further integration of the Society in the Church impossible.  With that, both sides could save face.

Link to kath.net...

SSPX Responds to Preamble: Rome is Listening Intently

Edit:  Vaticanista Tornielli has reported on the "Lefebrians" in his blog Vatican Insider.  There have also  been comments around and about that people are "hoping the SSPX is respectful and doesn't lecture Rome."

Apparently, those people haven't been paying attention to what Bishop Fellay has been saying throughout the entire process.   He hasn't been disrespectful, nor has he put himself in a position of lecturing Rome.  He's actually imploring the Holy Father's patience and asking him to consider first the state of the Church, which is disastrous, before he considers the SSPX's concerns with regard to Vatican II and present situation.

He's far more genuine and respectful, Catholic and submissive to the Holy Father than most of the Bishops in the German speaking zone, of whom only a handful can really be counted as loyal.

Remember, Bishop Fellay didn't sound "disrespectful" in the least when he hoped that the Vatican would reconsider the Preamble.  Well, it seems that his approach has worked, for now.

Msgr Fellay still has great hope that Rome will reconsider.
At the same time he recognizes the magnitude of the collapse.
As an example he described a congregation of sisters, which was once widespread in France.
In the meantime the community has three nuns between the ages of thirty and forty years of age, and in the ages of forty and fifty another three sisters.
About two hundred sisters are over seventy years old.  In the age group between twenty and fifty the number is only one less than in the age group over 100.

 Msgr. Fellay's conclusion:  "The Church is laying in death.  She is disappearing.  She has to wake up."