tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post4832365966439114190..comments2024-03-28T14:34:49.729-07:00Comments on The Eponymous Flower: Abolish Celibacy and Rehabilitate Giordano Bruno --- Bishop Kräutler and Frei Betto With Pope FrancisTancredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-7743418942476951392014-04-15T03:27:40.288-07:002014-04-15T03:27:40.288-07:00Errata: Prince Bertrand de Orleans e Braganza sent...Errata: Prince Bertrand de Orleans e Braganza sent his Reverent and Filial letter to Pope Francis on February 8th, and not in April. Its must read text is also available in English.Helio Dias Vianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08752503143738252212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-26417462338000626032014-04-15T03:22:04.438-07:002014-04-15T03:22:04.438-07:00In December 2013, two Latin-american proeminent le...In December 2013, two Latin-american proeminent leftists were invited to the Vatican, where they delivered speeches defending Liberation Theology and Socialism. They were Joao Pedro Stédile, representing the Sem-Terra movement, which organizes criminal invasions of private properties in Brazil, and Juan Grabois, a well-known Argentinian lawyer, in representation of the Cartoneros (paper collectors on the streets). Grabois, whose private interview with Pope Francisco lasted two hours, preaches that everyone, even the poorest man, that becomes proprietor transforms himself by this very fact into an exploiter and must be fought. Brazilian Catholic Prince Bertrand de Orleans e Braganza sent in April a respectful but firm letter to the Pontiff, asking Him to clarify all this. To time His Highness has not received any answer. Helio Dias Vianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08752503143738252212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-58344315302912967702014-04-13T12:29:24.266-07:002014-04-13T12:29:24.266-07:00Sounds like a personal problem. I agree with Lynda...Sounds like a personal problem. I agree with Lynda and Barbara.<br /><br />Anyone who doesn't realize priestly celibacy is an Apostolic tradition is just an Utrechtine, or worse.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-21754136193611605922014-04-13T11:00:40.253-07:002014-04-13T11:00:40.253-07:00It's more dismantling of Catholic Identity and...It's more dismantling of Catholic Identity and another attatck on the Catholic Priesthood - that is the real target with these modernists - the secularisation of the Holy Priesthood - by attacking the Catholic Celibate Priesthood, The Most Blessed Sacrament is also attacked - and here is the heart of our Holy Faith. They want to minimize the supernatural reality of our Faith substituting it with something human and with human limits...they want to destroy the Church...<br /><br />The priest is "another Christ" - Our Divine Lord is the only model for Catholic priesthood...all the saints, doctors of the Church and mystics confirm this.....it is not a matter of pragmatism or what would be useful on a managerial level...<br /><br /><br />Come on the priesthood is not another "job" - it is a calling from God....if the call is genuine - then the grace is there to follow the call in its entirety <br /><br />The priesthood is the most important office that exists...and these modernists don't understand a thing about holiness, chastity and divine beauty - or at least aspirations towards them.<br /><br />Barbara<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-53626434946355683672014-04-13T10:33:30.509-07:002014-04-13T10:33:30.509-07:00Anon, you have an aberrant view of celibacy which ...Anon, you have an aberrant view of celibacy which does not accord with the Faith, and the special closeness of one of Holy Orders to God, and hence to his people, through sacrificial love. One could never call on a spiritual father who was married as on one who has sacrificed marriage and biological fatherhood for the Lord and his spiritual children. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-79822443307913513812014-04-13T09:43:51.444-07:002014-04-13T09:43:51.444-07:00I'm not "John" and I disagree with h...I'm not "John" and I disagree with him about celibacy being outdated. Our Lord was celibate, and if men want to really, really imitate the Lord they should not be prevented our discouraged from doing so- The issue I find with it is, if celibacy is a necessary path to Christ and so our Salvation, then none of us should exist due to celibacy, or no married person is really worthy of Christ and His Kingdom. <br /><br />. But I agree about the historical basis for mandatory celibacy, that in the West, it's was all about politics; in the East, there have been plenty of autocrats unaffected by the byproducts of Frankish laws, and so inheritance was not much of an issue compared to the utterly fragmented West. (Compare the counties of the Holy Roman Empire with the Themes of Byzantium and Krais of Russia... they were largely unified by an autocrat, and so the clergy and their children have no basis to set up "Bishoprics" as an independent fiefdom without incurring the wrath of the emperor or tsar.) <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-17740464191101650032014-04-13T09:28:44.266-07:002014-04-13T09:28:44.266-07:00Another tragic result of enforced celibacy for the...Another tragic result of enforced celibacy for the priesthood is the treatment of priests like they are less than "real" men, as if they are eunuchs, even though they are virile and do desire women but in fact have to sacrifice that married life in a false opposition against the priestly life when the two doesn't have to necessarily be in opposition with each other. <br /><br />It is to prevent scandal that ordination of married men must be re-instated in the West, and there is in fact no legal prohibition against it; the ones who would have something against it, are those who follow tradition for tradition's sake, or those people with something to hide and using people with good intentions as a tool for their subterfuge. If dissidents can use the valid issue of married priesthood as a means to hide their evil, why can't dissidents use the celibate priesthood for their own ends? Isn't it the fact that homosexuals have been more safer and protected during the time when there was no great scrutiny raised against the clergy and their practices? No one was going to question that corrupt priest with access to young people and other men, but these days, that is not the case. <br /><br />Who gets to decide the issue anyways? Pope Francis doesn't seem to take any initiative in enforcing the rule of celibacy among the clergy, but seem to give that authority to the local bishops. That, I find disturbing, because there is no uniformity in practice if each bishop should have different opinions on the matter.<br /><br />In any case, should Rome decide on ordination of married men, they can find a working model from Easterners in terms of people who wish to be celibates and those married men who feel called to the priesthood. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-33097009928435140802014-04-13T08:31:34.174-07:002014-04-13T08:31:34.174-07:00Tancred, you are at liberty to accuse me of being ...Tancred, you are at liberty to accuse me of being a trouble-maker, but it doesn't necessarily make it so. I can accuse you of putting words into my own mouth and telling things which are not true as well, but all we have is an impasse and only the Lord knows whether what we say is truth, or out of ignorance, or out of malice. <br /><br />If I were a trouble-maker I would not take time to think out what I say and just outright vandalize the comments section. But doing that won't benefit anyone, neither will sarcasm and passive aggression. <br /><br />But I am convinced in what I say that many priests pervert what should be commendable- do you not agree that even if you give a priest a good thing, they will find ways to misuse and abuse it? So if the Mass can be destroyed or warped, why can't the practice of celibacy? And so, why would you equate anyone who honestly finds merit with married priests with idiots who merely want to destroy everything in the "Revolutionary Spirit of Gender Equality" or whatever agenda they're pushing forward? <br /><br />Celibacy has its place, and so does marriage. If a man wants to devote his life to God alone, he should not be married and should be a monk; if he feels called to marriage, then marry- but if monks can be priests, why can't married men? It's not the same as allowing those already ordained as being allowed to marry, or allowing bishops to marry as in the practice of high-church protestants... It's all the matter of consistency between the tradition and what the actual law allows- that Clerical Celibacy is mandatory, yet it is not explicitly written out in Canon Law that all clerics must absolutely be celibate- or else we'd have to do incredible legal/theological gymnastics to justify married Eastern Catholic clergy and those from the Anglican Ordinariates. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-32069589027669481262014-04-13T08:20:55.108-07:002014-04-13T08:20:55.108-07:00Claiming that clerical celibacy is from Apostolic ...Claiming that clerical celibacy is from Apostolic tradition is all rather nonsensical. What is the ontology of "Apostolicity" of a tradition? It cannot be transmitted by ordination, as the successor to a see is not ordained by his predecessor. Indeed, if according to our most esteemed modern theologians, the teaching has been from the beginning that the very being of the Church is to be found in the sacraments, then for this concept of Apostolicity to have any true ecclesiastical significance, it must be attached to some sacrament. But if so, under what sign is "Apostolicity" passed on to the successor of an Apostolic see by his predecessor? And in what way can mandatory celibacy for the priesthood be connected to this concept? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-76876569475267579562014-04-13T07:09:08.696-07:002014-04-13T07:09:08.696-07:00You sound like a trouble maker. You put words int...You sound like a trouble maker. You put words into my mouth and you make statements that are simply not true. <br /><br />I think you went wrong in the beginning when you launched your attack on priestly celibacy as "old fashioned". It's not.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-83866346506716455092014-04-13T07:05:48.846-07:002014-04-13T07:05:48.846-07:00In answer to your answers: A. There are other cl...In answer to your answers: A. There are other clergy besides Byzantine in the East. Your statement also presumes that Eastern Clergy erroneously believe that the Western tradition is an innovation as you described it. <br /><br />I don't accept the abolition of celibate clergy as a legitimate, no.. Even the Easterns haven't abandoned it entirely, and I think there are many who would be leery of change and the animus delendi that motivates so many advocates of this change. <br /><br />Maronite Cardinal Warns Against Abandoning it:<br /><br />http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2012/10/maronite-cardinal-warns-against.html<br /><br />C: You are a dissident, because you want to change things because they're "out of date". Your words, not mine. Clerical celibacy is not an innovation as you suppose.<br /><br />Married priests is a major part of the We Are Church platform, for obvious reasons.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-64465955262692629122014-04-12T23:52:38.667-07:002014-04-12T23:52:38.667-07:00B. I do accept that none of the Apostles had any c...B. I do accept that none of the Apostles had any children, or that they have left their married life for a life of celibacy to carry out their mission, but I never advocated for married Bishops anyway. Married priests, though I don't think it will fix any shortage in ordinations, know what married life is like, and having a room-mate priest doesn't count. Maybe that's the reason why you have so many homosexual priests especially in the Traditional Latin Mass scene; even if they don't commit homosexual acts, they go into the seminary and think it is normal to be with merely the same sex and they develop a culture of homosexuality in rectories; that "tradition" has been around as long as the Renaissance. It is abhorrent and I would rather be Orthodox than have effeminate Roman priests, who are a product of compulsory celibacy. (Or you shall concede that homosexuality is genetic, not as a result of the external environment and upbringing, and therefore natural and willed by God.) If it was apostolic tradition to have compulsory celibate priesthood, and the key word is -compulsory- then you would have a more explicit word from St. Paul (1 Corinthians 7:7-8 and 32-35) but I have not seen any damning sentence against a married priesthood, (Because the priesthood as we know it now did not exist then) unless you are prepared to accept that unless you are celibate, you are damned, with all the married people of the world, period. It would seem that the jump to compulsory celibacy for the priesthood was a handy thing for those bishops concerned by parishes who have their lands inherited to the children of their priests. It is because those bishops were more concerned by, ironically, things of the Earth that they end up creating this abominable position of compulsory celibacy for the priesthood that is enshrined as a tradition, but not as a law, curiously enough. <br /><br />So you must accept the possibility of the abolition of the celibate clergy, or deny the validity of Canon Law anyway. <br /><br />C. The Pope would most likely think you a dissident, and a defiant and obstinate person who is worthy of being held with contempt by the hierarchy and the Catholic Church in general. My own ordinary considered me as such after I confronted him about the liturgical abuses in my parish. That is why the Franciscans of the Immaculate will never be allowed to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass beyond what insignificant number they are allowed, that is why the Fisher-More College was shut down, and why things aren't looking great for your little Rad Trad movement, a movement which I thought I would belong to but grew to hate for its self-destructive behavior. <br /><br />If you spoke to the Pope and called him a dissident, how can you expect to get rid of Cardinal Mahony? I'm certain that you are viewed as a threat because you like being a threat, and so you will be treated as a threat. Feel free to complain to the internet some more. <br /><br />St. Paul stated: "I would that all men were even as myself; but every one hath his proper gift from God" <br /><br />but Tancred states: "You are a dissident and you warrant mockery and contempt because you disagree with me."<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-1671515567979449702014-04-12T23:50:55.042-07:002014-04-12T23:50:55.042-07:00A. So Eastern Catholicpe are invalid, gotcha. An a...A. So Eastern Catholicpe are invalid, gotcha. An absolute indicator of dissent is Female Priesthood and ACTUAL dissent against the Pope. Archbishop Lefebvre is either a dissident in the same league as Nuns on a Bus or he is Antipope. He will never be a saint, thanks to the Catholic Circular Firing Squad. It is no wonder why Protestants believe in the ridiculous position of Sola Scriptura, or the Orthodox in their ridiculous position of Collegiality. They have some final authority, an authority that we used to have in the Catholic Church in the person of the Pope but is, accept it, gone. It's never coming back. So the change in the situation is a reason why you have to carefully think about who the dissident is nowadays. You are with the Pope, or install an Antipope that fits your definition of orthodoxy. That is all I have to say about dissent and what indicates it. <br /><br />A. So Eastern Catholics are dissidents for having married clergy, gotcha. And exceptions granted by the Pope are invalid, gotcha. An absolute indicator of dissent is Female Priesthood and ACTUAL dissent against the Pope. Archbishop Lefebvre is either a dissident in the same league as Nuns on a Bus or he is Antipope. He will never be a saint, thanks to the Catholic Circular Firing Squad. It is no wonder why Protestants believe in the ridiculous position of Sola Scriptura, or the Orthodox in their ridiculous position of Collegiality. <br /><br />So you must accept the possibility of the abolition of the celibate clergy, or deny the validity of Canon Law anyway. <br /><br />C. The Pope would most likely think you a dissident, and a defiant and obstinate person who is worthy of being held with contempt by the hierarchy and the Catholic Church in general. My own ordinary considered me as such after I confronted him about the liturgical abuses in my parish. That is why the Franciscans of the Immaculate will never be allowed to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass beyond what insignificant number they are allowed, that is why the Fisher-More College was shut down, and why things aren't looking great for your little Rad Trad movement, a movement which I thought I would belong to but grew to hate for its self-destructive behavior. <br /><br />If you spoke to the Pope and called him a dissident, how can you expect to get rid of Cardinal Mahony? I'm certain that you are viewed as a threat because you like being a threat, and so you will be treated as a threat. Feel free to complain to the internet some more. <br /><br />St. Paul stated: "I would that all men were even as myself; but every one hath his proper gift from God" <br /><br />but Tancred states: "You are a dissident and you warrant mockery and contempt because you disagree with me." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-14246539693254390352014-04-12T18:42:35.300-07:002014-04-12T18:42:35.300-07:00A. Because it's a powerful indicator of dissi...A. Because it's a powerful indicator of dissidents.<br /><br />B. It's well-attested to by authorities above and beyond the internet that celibacy is an Apostolic tradition, like the Maronite Patriarch, Cardinal Brandmueller, Father Jolie of German priests.<br /><br />C. I attack everyone who apes dissident positions, no matter how well-intentioned they pretend to be.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-69118420875096746032014-04-12T18:35:29.905-07:002014-04-12T18:35:29.905-07:00You presume I talk about the unfortunate Bishop Fr...You presume I talk about the unfortunate Bishop Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst, though I said nothing about him. I have no problem with Bishop Emeritus of Limburg, because I know that he had plenty of opponents and that the accusation against him was unfounded. But you cannot deny the amount of money being handled by members of the hierarchy regardless of how they spend it. <br /><br />So yes, I'm as well informed about the Bishop Emeritus of Limburg as I am about Church history. <br /><br />You only attack me because I echo Pope Francis. Yet you have not any argument to refute that married clergy existed before the Council of Trent, only passive aggression which God Himself will take into account on the Last Day. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-83047788025029820352014-04-12T16:50:51.040-07:002014-04-12T16:50:51.040-07:00I'm afraid you're as well informed about t...I'm afraid you're as well informed about the Bishop Emeritus of Limburg as you are about Church history.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-60687065792148672512014-04-12T16:24:16.850-07:002014-04-12T16:24:16.850-07:00Saint Peter, the first Pope was married, and so we...Saint Peter, the first Pope was married, and so were many popes. The discipline of celibacy is commendable, but to make it mandatory is strange, and has been abused by homosexuals and other deviants who use the sanctity of the celibate life as a screen for their evil. <br /><br />Of course, I do not find objectionable the notion of hieromonasticism. That is why bishops should be, as was the tradition even in the West long, long, long ago, to be elected from monastic communities for their devotion to a holy life. <br /><br />Instead, what do we have now? Bishops of Bling (Not just that one German Bishop, but people like Mahony) , Airport Bishops, Administrators, Politicians, at the expense of the faithful's immortal soul. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-33400853801053580342014-04-12T16:15:18.517-07:002014-04-12T16:15:18.517-07:00Thank you for your learned remarks which surely de...Thank you for your learned remarks which surely demonstrate devotion in studies as well as profound understanding.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-11630063661254847312014-04-12T15:50:54.971-07:002014-04-12T15:50:54.971-07:00Celibacy needs to go it is outdated and unnecessar...Celibacy needs to go it is outdated and unnecessary. It had no basis in religion it was about inheritance of property rights.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14890453901834200099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-49254846917493569292014-04-12T09:13:10.573-07:002014-04-12T09:13:10.573-07:00What is going on?What is going on?Damask Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903564104733536123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-8851916834586224902014-04-12T08:02:27.443-07:002014-04-12T08:02:27.443-07:00Yes, every nobody, or heretic, or aposate gets wel...Yes, every nobody, or heretic, or aposate gets welcomed by the Modernist popes. Even sodomy loving child murderers like the obama person. But in no way would they trouble themselves with bishops and priests who adhere to Catholicism.<br /><br />We have a duty to point out the errors of Churchmen, especially to our children. The Devilish errors of Pope Francis would even horrify JPII and that is goin' some! Benedict XVI should be quaking with fear at the sight if the monster he helped create by shamelessly defending a council that has no defense! But when we expose their falsehoods and stab them to death with the sword of truth, we should also be quick to pray for them that they receive the graces necessary for their conversions. Not just for their own souls but for the souls who are in peril because of the nonsense they spew.<br /><br />"In the holy name of Jesus! I bind all spirits not of the Holy Spirit that influence our priests, bishops and pope and I send them to the foot of the Cross to be judged by the Lord!"<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-70841480964570995942014-04-12T05:08:55.914-07:002014-04-12T05:08:55.914-07:00The pope talks to heretics about heretics and Fr. ...The pope talks to heretics about heretics and Fr. Manelli of the FFI is under house arrest. Probably because he doesn't wear a suit and tie. Bad is good and good is bad in our modernist Church. I can't call it Catholic anymore. The damage has been done. Can't wait for the pope party on April 27 to make more heretics into saints official.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-14758405387550003332014-04-12T04:51:56.848-07:002014-04-12T04:51:56.848-07:00It wouldn't be the first time this Pope has be...It wouldn't be the first time this Pope has been used for other people's purposes, but it would be nice if he'd public ally contradict these people more frequently, as was the case with his atheist friend.<br /><br />Still, the only reason I'd want to meet these people if I were pope would be to arrest then and try then for heresy.Tancredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015531337154301560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-54368117225340638822014-04-12T04:18:42.485-07:002014-04-12T04:18:42.485-07:00On what basis does this recalcitrant apostate and ...On what basis does this recalcitrant apostate and long-time enemy of the Faith get a personal audience with the Pope?? Has he come away chastened, repentant, ready to work to undo some of the great harm he has done? No, he comes away confirmed in his apostasy and hate for the Faith and emboldened in his diabolical work. Reparation! Blessed Michael, defend us in the hour of battle ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4404498638452030181.post-28139508763604467122014-04-11T23:17:16.734-07:002014-04-11T23:17:16.734-07:00If they'll do that to Bruno...
Then give us S...If they'll do that to Bruno...<br /><br />Then give us Saint Girolamo Savonarola. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com